1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,280 Okay thank you so much Eli  for the kind introduction.  2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:16,160 So I'd like to start with these two  scenes that are characteristic I think of   3 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:24,720 internal migration in China. The first one  is quite well known which is the eviction   4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:34,080 of migrant workers in low-income sectors in  Beijing in December 2017, and this was following   5 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:41,360 a fire um in the migrant worker department in  a suburbs of Beijing, that killed 19 people. 6 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:51,600 And um the people were referred to as "low end  population" with quotation marks in some official   7 00:00:51,600 --> 00:01:00,720 documents. Um and then the second one is probably  less known. It's a farewell a farewell event for   8 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:08,640 the so-called returnee children to say goodbye to  Shenzhen. So they have been grown up in the city,   9 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:14,000 but then they have to return to the hometown  of their parents to continue their education.   10 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:21,840 And this was organized by some civil society  organizations, and they were doing it in six   11 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:29,040 cities - in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Nanjing,  Xiamen, some other cities. And according to this   12 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:39,680 organization, 90,000 students finishing primary  school from these six cities have to go back,   13 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:46,720 to "go back in", again in quotation marks because  they have little to no experience with um those   14 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:53,680 places. The places are the hometown of their  parents, and they will become left behind children   15 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,600 there because their parents will  continue to work in these coastal cities.   16 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:14,640 So with this, I'd like to invite you to  think about the relativity of membership, and   17 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:19,520 boundaries of membership, and rights. So it's about when does crossing   18 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:28,400 boundaries, internal boundaries within the nation  state matter. And when does one become a migrant?   19 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,920 And that is to say their movement  across certain socially constructed   20 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:42,800 boundaries becomes problematized as an object of  governing. A person migrating from, for example, 21 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:52,160 to Copenhagen, where I am based now wouldn't be  considered a migrant. In fact a Swedish citizen   22 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:59,520 moving from Stockholm to Copenhagen usually  isn't a migrant either. That means their mobility   23 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:07,040 isn't a problem, or isn't problematized by the  government. And the rally have problems accessing   24 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:16,480 equal civil, political, and uh social rights  just like um the locals. Apart from formal legal   25 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,600 rights, there is also the problem of identity  and belonging of course in the context of   26 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:28,480 international migration. And a second generation  immigrant from Danish with Danish citizenship   27 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:35,760 from a non-western country is still framed as a  migrant in the public discourse in this country.   28 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:44,640 All this is to say that migration is a lot  more than crossing territorial boundaries,   29 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,960 and also a lot more than crossing  national territorial boundaries. 30 00:03:52,720 --> 00:04:01,120 Um so this is the outline of my presentation  today. I'll start with some boring conceptual   31 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:09,280 issues, um clarifying some some um concepts.  And then I'll look at Hukou. I spend much more   32 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,480 time on the second topic than what I'll do  with this third topic, because the third   33 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:22,480 topic is sort of work in progress. Um so I spent  much of the time talking about Hukou reforms,   34 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,840 and what that means for differentiated  citizenship in contemporary China.   35 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:37,120 And then I'll talk a little on suzhi as a marker  of difference in hierarchy, and how it defines 36 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,840 an ideal citizenry. 37 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:56,080 So, conventional approaches to citizenship talk  about these different layers or elements of   38 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:03,120 the concept. Um typically legal status, the  passport you have, the nationality you have on   39 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:11,600 your passport, and the kind of rights it endows.  Those practice or democratic participation,   40 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:21,360 and identity, so normally in conventional sort of  citizenship theory, you could say that liberal,   41 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:30,480 there are liberal republican, and communitarian  conceptions of of it. And with respect to focus on   42 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:37,840 rights, liberal concept would focus on rights;  republican concept would focus on democratic   43 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:44,000 participation; and the the communitarian  approach would focus on identity and so on.   44 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:51,840 Um but beyond this, two alternative perspectives  have in particular shaped my initial interests   45 00:05:52,480 --> 00:06:02,080 in citizenship studies. The first looks at  those acts or raptures even of performances   46 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,040 beyond our normal understanding of  what democratic participation means.   47 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:15,520 And through which the excluded such as  undocumented migrants or asylum seekers, refugees   48 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:24,960 constitute themselves as citizens or political  subjects. And then the second one focuses on   49 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:34,080 citizenship as governmental strategies that  produce exclusions, and stratifications. Um and   50 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,920 these technologies and discourses of citizenship  also create specific forms of subjectivity.   51 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:48,880 For example, liberal citizenship would be about  rational, autonomous, autonomous self-interests,   52 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:58,240 liberal subjects. So this is what I mean when I  talk about technology of citizenship in the title.   53 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:07,040 So today when I want to talk about Hukou and  suzhi as technologies of citizenship in China.   54 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:11,280 And um if I use Isin's   55 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:19,760 this theorists, um the theorist that is best  known for the acts of citizenship approach.   56 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:27,600 Um we could say that Hukou is about the extent of  citizenship so defining the boundary of rights,   57 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:37,520 and suzhi is about the depth of citizenship,  um about the qualities of what an ideal modern   58 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:44,480 citizen means, or entails, requires. Um but  maybe there are better terms. I think there   59 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:57,840 are probably better terms to to describe  these um dimensions of Chinese citizenship. 60 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,680 So next I also want to mention  the concept of social citizenship.   61 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:13,680 Um one of one of the best known theorists of this  is English British sociologist T.H. Marshall,   62 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:22,320 who defines social citizenship as in a nutshell  the right to live the life of a civilized being,   63 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,920 according to the standards prevailing  in the society. And in concrete terms,   64 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:35,040 this typically is comprised of welfare  institutions, ideals of national solidarity,   65 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:42,800 and provision of social rights as something  distinct from civil and political rights. And   66 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:49,600 of course this is quite a Eurocentric framework,  and it's also needs to be put into the historical   67 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:57,520 context. And so it's mainly a 20th century  development in the European welfare state.   68 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:05,280 From the bottom up perspective you could  say it's resulted from, is achieved   69 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:12,640 through labor struggles. And from a top-down  perspective you could say that it's sort of 70 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:21,840 responses taken by the state to neutralize  the antagonism between capital and labor. 71 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,840 The reason why this is relevant  is because I conceptualize Hukou   72 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:36,080 as a form of muscle level social citizenship,  which to a large degree is about the portability   73 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,080 of social rights under conditions  of cross-border mobility movement.   74 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:49,840 Now the problematization of international  mobility is not unique to contemporary China,   75 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:59,200 as the construction of social citizenship always  entails exclusion, inclusion and boundary making.   76 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:06,560 So international mobility was a problem before the  establishment of national, social citizenship in   77 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:14,560 the European welfare state. Um and in the United  States, there's a famous case called Edward versus   78 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:23,200 California. California which you might have heard  of, basically California prohibited the bringing 79 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:32,320 of indigent persons from elsewhere to the  state in their welfare and institutions code.   80 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:38,400 And in 1941 the supreme court decided  that the law was unconstitutional. 81 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:51,440 A final point about the final um  slides in my conceptual issues section.   82 00:10:52,480 --> 00:11:01,680 Um so this has to do with the translation  of citizenship in in Chinese right. So   83 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:09,760 the interesting thing about this is  that you have two ways of translating or   84 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:19,200 articulating this concept in Chinese, um but also  in other eastern East Asian languages like in   85 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:29,520 Japanese as far as I know. Um nowadays, I think  it's more common to say gongmin but still there   86 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:37,520 are in older translations, and in certain cases,  you could still see a citizen as shimin. And   87 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,400 in civil society, in the translation of civil  society, there is something similar. So you   88 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:53,360 have gongmin society and shimin society with one  emphasizing publicness, and another emphasizing   89 00:11:53,360 --> 00:12:03,440 urbanity or the urban quality of a citizen. I  actually got reminded um of this by Eli's upcoming   90 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:13,360 talk on urbanization of the people. Right so this  is a policy go in the new type urbanization plan.   91 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,280 And it's mentioned a lot - it is a  buzzword in all the discussions about   92 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:26,080 rural - urban integration and rural to  urban migrants. Now I think urbanization   93 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,840 of the people is a good translation. But in some  Chinese language academic articles, you can also   94 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:39,360 see that it's translated as citizenization  in their English abstracts and so on. And   95 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:49,200 there also is a point there I think because  there's always this um connection between the   96 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:58,720 idea, and the ideal of citizenship, and the urban.  Um so I'll go back to this later but I think   97 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:07,440 eventually, ultimately; the urbanization of  citizenization of the people entails turning   98 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:16,640 these migrants into proper urban citizens with  appropriate rights, responsibilities, and certain   99 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,920 desirable qualities associated  with the discourse of suzhi. 100 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,120 Now very quickly about that. 101 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:38,240 Pre-history of Hukou. The household registration  system in imperial China but it's it's   102 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:45,600 it's very different from what it is now. But  I think suffice it to say that, this thing,   103 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,040 this institution of household registration has  a long history, and this also influenced the   104 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:59,200 similar practices in other East Asian countries  like the Koseki in Japan. But then the functions   105 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:04,960 were very different historically, and now and  they're also different in different countries. 106 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,360 For those of you who don't know, who  didn't have any prior knowledge about this.   107 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:28,960 Um household registration - Hukou is an  administrative practice, requiring all citizens   108 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:34,720 to be registered with their local Hukou authority  - that is usually Public Security Bureau.   109 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:43,920 And um so it is a form of civil registration  system. And civil registration systems are of   110 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:50,800 course extremely widespread across the world. And  it's an essential feature of the modern states.   111 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,520 But what's unique of this is that your official  place of registration is tied to your access to   112 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:05,760 certain social rights because the social security  systems are fragmented, and locally governed. And   113 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:12,960 it can be difficult to change it when you change,  when you have changed your residence. And um   114 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:21,040 so it's essentially about the the portability of  social rights as I said earlier, when you go cross   115 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:30,320 go across boundaries of of those social rights.  But how difficult is it it really depends. It   116 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:39,840 depends on you, and it depends on the cities you  are moving to, and we'll get to that in a moment. 117 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:58,720 Next I'm going to walk you through quickly  the involvement of Hukou policies in the PRC.   118 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,840 So everything started in 1958 when the regulation  on household registration was introduced. 119 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,240 One interesting thing about the constitutional  revision, or the constitutional amendment is   120 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:25,200 that in the 1954 version of the constitution,  we had freedom of movement recognized in the   121 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:32,960 constitution. Um but then it became like only  on paper after this regulation was introduced   122 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:43,920 in 1958. And then it was removed all together  from the 1975 constitution that never got back.   123 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:51,680 But of course a lot of other political rights  mentioned in the constitution are on paper only   124 00:16:52,240 --> 00:17:00,560 too. Um but the right to freedom  of movement is is absent at all. Um   125 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:08,960 so this means with this regulation, it means  that people could not move freely from um   126 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:17,040 rural areas to urban areas. And there was  this dual track registration system where   127 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,120 you have two types of Hukou.  This has been abolished now.   128 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,000 There were agricultural and  non-agriculture ,cultural types of Hukou. 129 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:37,440 And this mobility regime served to maintain the  dualistic planned economy, and also of course the   130 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:44,480 dualistic welfare system, which is still very  much dualistic right now - the welfare system.   131 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:52,400 Even though programs of rural - urban integration  have been introduced in recent years or decades.   132 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:59,920 For example, integration of different health  insurance systems in urban and rural areas began   133 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:09,360 in 2016. So quite recent. Another example is that  currently rural and urban residents have different   134 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:18,800 income threshold for getting subsistence allowance  or basic living benefits in most provinces.   135 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:27,360 But in places like Beijing and Shanghai, the  standard has been unified. And this is a little   136 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:34,880 at the bottom of the slide is a little quote from  Luo Ruiqing - the Minister of Public Security;   137 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:46,400 um justifying the regulation in 1958. So it was,  he said that it was about protecting the interest   138 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:55,840 of the people as a whole. And the freedoms are  freedoms with guidance not anarchism and so on. 139 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:11,440 And then after the reform and opening up. 140 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:22,800 You need migrant labor from the rural area  to boost the economy in the coastal area   141 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,320 with that we have the regulation. They have  the regulation on the management of temper   142 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:35,520 residents in cities and towns. So it means  people from the rural area can seek jobs   143 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:41,680 in cities and towns provided, that they apply  for and obtain a temporary residence to permit.   144 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:48,960 Um the notorious "zan zhu zheng" (temporary  resident permit) and internal migrants without   145 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,920 this document suffered vulnerabilities  similar to undocumented migrants in   146 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:02,960 the international context. Especially  there was a procedure an administrative   147 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:11,040 procedure known as custody and repatriation  which resulted in a tragedy. But there were   148 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:17,960 lots of tragedies resulted from that of  course. But the most famous one was the Sun   149 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:25,840 Zhigang incident in 2003. That eventually  ended this administrative procedure,   150 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:34,560 so people could no longer be falsely  removed simply because of lack of documents. 151 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Then after we entered the 21st century,  there have been lots of initiatives programs   152 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:56,240 trying to improve the rights of migrant workers  because it's now really a social problem that   153 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,840 a governmental problem, that increases  social tension tension in society.   154 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:10,880 And um you sort of want to introduce  rural urban integration plans and also   155 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:18,800 new type urbanization plans. All these have to do,  one the central question to all of these programs   156 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:25,920 um is the rights, and the  governance of rural to urban 157 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,840 migrants. 158 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:41,440 The table on the um top right corner is from my  2018 paper. It's a little dated now, because it's   159 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:51,200 the differentiated approach to Hukou acquisition.  Given by the 2000, given by the state council   160 00:21:51,200 --> 00:22:03,760 in the 2014 outline. Um then in recent years  so from (20)14 to (20)19 to now (20)20, (20)21,   161 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:12,960 the population threshold for completely opening  up has become bigger and bigger in 2014,   162 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:20,080 only towns and small cities should have an uh  sort of completely open Hukou acquisition policy.   163 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:32,320 But in 2019 cities were told that cities of a  one to three million urban population should   164 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:39,760 lift the restrictions. And the latest deadline  from 2021 from this action plan for building   165 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:48,560 high standards market systems goes that, all  cities except mega and extra large cities 166 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,480 meeting appropriate criteria could explore  residence based Hukou registration; that means,   167 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,600 you know, once you are here, if you live  here, then you should get a local Hukou.   168 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:08,640 Um I'll get into the implication of this later,  but some of the other things talked about in these   169 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,000 policy papers. The first thing is  abolish the distinction between   170 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,200 are we call agricultural and  non-agricultural types of registration.   171 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:27,040 That's the type of Hukou, it's not the  location of Hukou. So it doesn't mean   172 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,920 you can automatically change your Hukou to  your place of residence. It only means that   173 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:42,880 rural and urban residents now hold the same type  of registration. And the policy documents also say   174 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:51,200 we should promote equal access to basic public  services based on this new type of document,   175 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:59,360 um which is "ju zhu zheng" or residence permit or  residence card and the temporary residence permit   176 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:06,960 or "zan zhu zheng" has been abolished. And then  new urbanization as the urbanization of people   177 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:18,720 turning um migrant workers. Rural to urban  migrants to urban citizens that means having them,   178 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,360 giving them equal access to  basic public services, but also   179 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:35,840 demanding them to acquire certain intrinsic or  inherent internal qualities themselves as well.   180 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:45,840 And also I'll talk about this  when I get to the suzhi part. 181 00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:59,840 So basically; 182 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,520 I conceptualized Hukou as  technology of social citizenship.   183 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:15,040 And um I think even though with lots of  these reforms, it still holds true in 2021.   184 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:23,680 As it determines to a large degree one's access  to state-sponsored social rights, especially   185 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:32,960 those concerning education, healthcare, housing  allowance, and social security. Um and it creates 186 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,240 a highly exploitable and profitable labor force,   187 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:46,320 because precarious legal status especially  in the era of "zan zhu zheng" or temporary   188 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,720 residence permit, and lack of social  provisions makes them a highly um make   189 00:25:52,720 --> 00:26:00,240 them highly vulnerable to exploitative market  relations. Even when "zan zhu zheng" has been   190 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:10,400 abolished events like the Beijing eviction of 2017  show that the inclusion of certain sections of the   191 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:18,480 population in the city is conditional upon their  migrancy, temporariness, and the portability.   192 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:27,200 Um so in that sense it's quite similar to  international labor migration, especially   193 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:34,880 those temporary migration regime programs,  and of course undocumented migrants whose   194 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:44,880 exploitability, and profitability also  comes from um their vulnerable legal status.   195 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:55,440 Um so institutional and market factors which are  not limited to Hukou. Hukou is just one among   196 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:04,880 many other factors or obstacles make some migraine  workers life in the city permanently temporary. So   197 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:13,200 you see that actually only a minority of them want  to have local Hukou, because even without taking   198 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,560 into uh taking that into account, um they are  quite aware that their life and work is temporary.   199 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:33,920 Um so similar to many precarious migrant workers  in the uh from the South to the global North,   200 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:42,160 this precariousness comes from both  insecure legal status, and exploitative   201 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:50,400 market relations that are mutually reinforcing  each other. Um in the Chinese context then this   202 00:27:50,400 --> 00:28:01,120 has hugely reduced the cost of urbanization,  because the city is getting lots of young and   203 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:07,200 exploitable uh migrant workers from  the rural area without having to 204 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,840 pay for the cost of labor reproduction. Um  having to pay for their health care or education,   205 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,040 and stuff like that. So the costs of labor  reproduction are either minimal or displaced   206 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:31,840 um because they have to leave their children at  home. Um so the the cost of labor reproduction   207 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:43,680 are displaced to the um countries; uh to the  places of origin. Um and finally, it's a lot more   208 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:53,680 about the rights of migrant workers. It's also an  instrument of population management of resource   209 00:28:53,680 --> 00:29:02,560 allocation that facilitates other governmental  goals, or correspondence with other governmental   210 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:11,840 goals, including industrial restructuring urban  transformation and rural land ownership reforms. 211 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,120 Then taken together, 212 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,160 if you look at the trajectory 213 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:35,520 um of this, from the 1950s and to now. It  has shifted from the dualistic rural-urban   214 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:43,040 segregation to a multiplication of legal statuses,  boundaries, and hierarchies of citizenship.   215 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:51,840 So the inclusion, exclusion structure  was was dualistic before the reform,   216 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,320 and now it's much more  differentiated and multi-dimensional. 217 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,680 There are differentiated rights in the city  contingent on years of residency income   218 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,680 educational attainment quantified  contribution to society and so on,   219 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,480 as you will see from the point-based system  used in Beijing, Shanghai, and Shenzhen. 220 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:25,520 And very importantly; there's a further  hierarchization of mobility between cities.   221 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,480 Um so the hierarchy, 222 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:38,480 the main sort of boundaries not between  cities and rural areas anymore, but between   223 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,920 different tiers of cities. 224 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:54,160 And only the only the most powerful cities  have the most selective migration policies. 225 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:05,120 And another thing I want to mention is that  under those projects of urban transformation   226 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:13,280 and beautification as we have seen in Beijing  and Guangzhou. The right to the city is denied   227 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:19,600 also to the urban poor, with local vocal,  and also in the case of Guangzhou. You'll see   228 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,160 similar exclusion inclusion 229 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:35,120 applies to international migrants,  African immigrants, um under this name of   230 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,320 beautification, and urban transformation,  and so on. So the boundaries are   231 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:49,360 multiplied, and it's not just about um the  dualistic urban-rural segregation anymore.   232 00:31:51,360 --> 00:32:01,840 Um so basically I think this is about reorganizing  the spatiality of what Kean Fan Lim called   233 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:08,720 uneven economic geographical development. So  basically the economic policies built on this   234 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:21,360 hierarchical organizing of space in within the  Chinese states. Um so you have eastern, central,   235 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:30,240 and western regions, and initially the coastal  eastern area gained the highest priority in   236 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:36,880 integrating into the global economy, and has  benefited so far immensely from the kind of   237 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:44,720 migration regime we talked about. And now they are  aiming to move upwards in the global value chain;   238 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:53,520 whereas um labor-intensive manufacturing  industry is moving westwards to the central area.   239 00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,240 Um so if you look at the urban master plans  of these first tier cities, they all speak of   240 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:07,120 optimizing industrial, not only industrial  structure, but also optimizing their   241 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:17,600 population structure. Um also if you compare  this to the pre-reform era, you could say that   242 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:29,120 migration control used to be relying on direct  governmental intervention only. But now it's a   243 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:36,800 combination of direct governmental intervention  including introducing population caps,   244 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:44,400 and um implementing evictions and  so on, and market-based mechanisms   245 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:52,640 um such as like upgrading your industrial  structure, urban development projects.   246 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:01,760 Um like in Beijing, they also sort of  eliminated street level small businesses. 247 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,840 And um 248 00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:13,200 just to illustrate the the  hierarchy between cities. 249 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,840 As you can see from this graph, 250 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:29,600 (there's a laser point) only first and  second tier cities actually have net   251 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,800 immigration, and all the smaller  cities are losing um their their 252 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:46,880 population size. And um even though Xi'an is a  second tier city, but is it in the central region,   253 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:55,600 so it's really not a popular destination. And  it opened up its Hukou policy in 2017 to compete   254 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:01,920 with other second-tier cities in attracting  talents. And then you can see there is a   255 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,200 dramatic increase after this  in their Hukou population,   256 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:16,560 but not so much an increase in in their um in  the number of actual residents. And this is um 257 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:27,200 an entry barrier index developed by some  quantitative researchers um based on Hukou   258 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:35,360 policies of different cities. And you can see  there's a dramatic difference between them. And   259 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:44,080 the four traditional the four um first-tier cities  are definitely the ones with the highest barrier. 260 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:57,840 So point-based system is the last thing I  want to mention about this new emerging um   261 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:06,800 regime of citizenship, and mobility as  as I call it. Um so in a way it's it's   262 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,400 kind of a global trend, it's quite similar  to the sort of point-based systems used in 263 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,040 the global North to 264 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:29,840 govern and filter international migrants.  But on the other hand, I also think this is   265 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:39,840 um a continuation of a long-standing  tradition in Socialist China, that is   266 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,840 this belief in the power of quantification,   267 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:54,480 a continuation of the rationality of  scientific managerialism. So numbers considered 268 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,480 objective and scientific, and you can  see that in the social credit system 269 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,840 too. 270 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,160 I won't go through these  points in any details, but   271 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:28,400 just to have an idea how sort of difficult to um 272 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:37,040 get Hukou in cities like Beijing and Shanghai,  even though it's very easy to get it in cities   273 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:45,200 like Xi'an. And there's a if you'll speak  Mandarin, there's an episode from "gu shi FM"   274 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:50,480 called "I could give up everything  for anything for Beijing Hukou".   275 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:58,480 Um it's quite it's worth a listen if you're  interested in this kind of personal stories, 276 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,680 and here is the point-based system  for school admission in Shenzhen   277 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:12,880 in one of the districts in Shenzhen. And then you  can see it's really a combination of different   278 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:22,160 factors. If you have a local Hukou but your  parents live in rented houses, you actually get   279 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:28,960 lower score than if you don't have a local Hukou  and your parents own property in the school   280 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:38,240 catchment area. So this brings me to the last  points about the Hukou section. In the Hukou   281 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:47,440 section, that is it's not everything. So sometimes  sometimes there's a mystification of vocal in the   282 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:55,440 study of internal migration in China, there are  apparently a huge number of papers, articles,   283 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:04,720 studies on this, but it's become increasingly  clear that it doesn't matter in lots of places,   284 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:12,960 it doesn't really matter in much smaller cities,  non-provincial capitals, and county level towns   285 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:20,400 like my hometown. But it does matter very  much in places like Beijing and Shanghai,   286 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:27,840 and those are the places where you have  the most selective restrictive policies. Um   287 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:36,480 so it really depends on the internal the power  positioning of cities within the country.   288 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:49,440 And um if you consider the intention of rural to  urban migrant workers to get local urban Hukou,   289 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,040 as I said, only a minority haven't  had the intention to get it. But   290 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,440 of course it it depends on your perspective   291 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:06,320 um or how you would interpret it because sometimes  it's like, it's so impossible that they won't even   292 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:13,040 consider it. Um but still those living in the  first tier cities are most likely to say yes.   293 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:23,200 Um and the top reasons for no are high living  costs fear so for first tier cities the most   294 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:33,200 the biggest reason is high living costs. And um  in smaller cities, you have fear of losing rural   295 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:41,120 land rights, and also no stable employment,  because the job is sort of temporary anyway. 296 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,680 And as I said earlier it's not the single  determining factor of job and social security. 297 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:14,000 So next is the content, um the depth or not  the content. the depth of citizenship right.   298 00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:21,440 Um the kind of qualities you  associate with um ideal citizenry,   299 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:32,320 um and that is the really complex suzhi discourse.  I'm using your super scientific graph from google   300 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:41,120 and gram here. Um as you can see, it's a discourse  that really emerged since the 1980s. And I have   301 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:47,840 no idea what happened here, but this is the  end of the um the turn of the 20th century   302 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:57,040 around 1900, so I'm sure it means  something different a hundred years ago. 303 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:06,160 But for now it is this policy and everyday  discourse that has become completely naturalized.   304 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:15,840 And it has been used to describe, explain,  and justify difference in the hierarchy.  305 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:25,840 What it exactly means is extremely diverse -  it could range from mannerism, self-discipline,   306 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:32,160 lifestyles, hygiene, education to  professional skills, and entrepreneurialism.   307 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:43,840 And the newer new type urbanization  plan issued by the central government um 308 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,560 says that the main points, the goal of   309 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:55,360 the new type organization is about um urbanization  of the people, and raising the suzhi of the   310 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,080 population. Of course this is like mentioning  a lot of other policy documents as well. 311 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,200 So um I'm at the beginning of this, 312 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,360 little sub sub uh project. 313 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,600 The point I'd like to make here is that um 314 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:29,920 as a marker of difference, and hierarchy between  morality or urbanity, uncivilized versus civilized   315 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:37,440 subject versus citizen - the connotation  of the term is really context dependent,   316 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:45,600 and there's also evolving. So earlier depiction  of so-called low-suzhi migrant workers really   317 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,320 focused on their rural bodily  habitus as Yan Hairong said in 318 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:57,440 an earlier article about suzhi -  so taking showers, brush teeth,   319 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:03,760 um stop fighting, and not to squat  on chairs, something like that.   320 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:11,840 And current discussion of suzhi in the context  of new type urbanization focuses more on   321 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:23,360 qualities such as education, culture, professional  skills, self-governance, and improvement, and   322 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:31,600 knowledge of laws, and rules, and so on. This is  a preliminary um impression from looking through   323 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:41,120 a quick glance at this comprehensive  economic academic knowledge production on   324 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:47,360 how to increase the suzhi rural to urban migrants  and facilitate their integration into cities.   325 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,560 So I think next I'm going to like  take a closer look, and have a proper   326 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:58,640 content analysis of this um of  this knowledge of expertise. 327 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:10,800 And um importantly, it has been internalized by  disadvantaged groups to rationalize inequalities   328 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:23,040 and injustice. So this is a podcast made by um  made four migrant workers, and they have guests,   329 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:30,720 um they have migrant workers as guests. And  one of the recent ones is um a labor organizer   330 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:35,280 delivery worker. And the bad news I  think he's been arrested recently.   331 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:44,160 So he's a delivery worker, and he he  has a he has a mutual support group   332 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:54,640 um and he's a great guy. But what's also struck  me from that interview is when the host asked him,   333 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,680 because he said it's it's difficult for us to  unite, and it's difficult to have solidarity among   334 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:11,360 delivery workers in the gig economy. And  the host said why do you think is that.  335 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,720 You know I thought he would say because of the  nature of the job right, because you are not   336 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:20,000 like typical industrial workers, and so on. But  he said because most people have very low suzhi.   337 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:29,280 He's like um because you know delivery workers - they have they have really low suzhi. So um 338 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:38,000 I think that's quite an extraordinary example of  how it's it's been internalized by disadvantaged   339 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:45,040 groups to um rationalize their the kind of  inequalities, and injustice they experience. 340 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:57,600 And because I do study international relations,  um what interests me too is also how it's used   341 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:06,960 to produce imaginaries of global hierarchies. Um  the typical narrative about this would be the low   342 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:15,680 suzhi Chinese people. Um there's a self-oriented  orientalizing aspect to it, and the high suzhi   343 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:26,560 of Japanese um and typically westerners. And I  just came across this. Is that a time reminder? 344 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:39,280 Did you did anyone give me a time reminder?  I just sent the link to the da gong tan.  345 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:51,040 Yeah okay okay so uh a recent speech made by Xi - He was I think it's really interesting. He   346 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,600 says that the younger generations can now  look at the world as equals, and no longer   347 00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:06,320 as you know inferior um to the westerners.  And they are no longer as "tu" as we were.   348 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:13,600 Um so this this binary of "tu" and "yang" is also  quite interesting which I have written on twitter,   349 00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:21,760 through a twitter thread. But of course it is  not uh here is not the time to talk about this.   350 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:29,440 But it's just how the the suzhi is part of this  imagination about global hierarchies um that's   351 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:36,640 very much situated in the broader um linear  and evolutionary and dichotomous discourse   352 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:46,960 of modernization. And also in Shanshan Lan's  study on the black threat discourse in China.   353 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:54,000 So she identified these these five  themes including low suzhi, so how um   354 00:48:54,000 --> 00:49:06,320 these anti-black racist discourse um used the  the suzhi discourse to dehumanize, or racialize   355 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:14,960 Africans in China. But also she made points  that I find quite interesting is that um when   356 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:21,200 you when you ask people who actually interact  with um black Africans in China, they would,   357 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,840 when they comment on their language skills, they  would say, well they're actually quite high suzhi   358 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:34,960 because they they speak good English. Um and then  that reminds me of um how some some friends of   359 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:43,840 mine worked in on ethnic minorities, and they told  me that speaking mandarin would be considered a   360 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:56,560 characteristic of high suzhi in minority areas.  So these instances I think show that the changing   361 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:06,160 context dependent understanding, and  discourse of suzhi is reflect both reflective,   362 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:12,960 and constitutive of the global, and national  linguistic as well as cultural hegemony. 363 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,080 So finally 364 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:23,680 I want to connect this to  365 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:35,440 um the social credit system which has been  very very under uh misunderstood. Um but   366 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,040 I won't spend much time explaining what social  credit system is, because that's just too much.   367 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:51,920 Um so I just mentioned this aspects of  the SCS, regarding the disciplining of   368 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,720 individual behaviors, through scoring  systems, but these scoring systems   369 00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:04,240 are very very few. They exist only in a couple  of dozen cities, and they're not mandatory 370 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:13,280 but I talked to the civil servants in those  cities where they do have the scoring system.   371 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:19,600 And they use a scoring system to  sort of encourage certain behaviors,   372 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:25,440 and punish, but not really punish -  um discourage certain other behaviors.   373 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:35,840 And of course they use the language of suzhi.  Um and they connect this also to things like   374 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:45,520 legal consciousness, um compliance the sort of  awareness to comply with contracts and so on.   375 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:55,120 I think it's quite similar to um the  construction of the meaning of suzhi in   376 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:04,320 the contemporary context. So it's no  longer, it's not so much connected to   377 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:14,480 the bodily habitus anymore. But more to this  sort of being competitive and rules abiding   378 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:22,000 on the market, and also in society with  regard to the social credit narratives. I um 379 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:32,480 interpret this as combining different  elements of liberal socialist and   380 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:40,880 very ambiguous traditional subjectivities. Um  so that's what the um the kind of subjectivity   381 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:47,120 they tried to construct through this concept  of trusted worthiness. On the liberal side,   382 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,840 it's about the so-called modern contractual  spirits. It's actually used in the Shanghai um   383 00:52:54,720 --> 00:53:01,760 municipal regulation on on social credit -  um the compliance with laws and contracts.   384 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:10,080 And then certain socialist elements that has  to do with voluntarism in a community service,   385 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:16,640 sacrifice that kind of things, um devotion.  And then in the traditional areas,   386 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:23,200 is very vague. It's just mentioned like mentioned  that trustworthiness is the traditional virtual.   387 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,840 But when it comes to what they get what  that exactly what that exactly means,   388 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:43,360 it's really ambiguous. So anyhow I think what's  crucial about Hukou is that not about hukou, the   389 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:50,880 suzhi discourse is that on the one hand, it really  revises existing social boundaries and difference,   390 00:53:52,000 --> 00:54:00,800 but on the other hand, it also promises the  endless possibility for improvements. So Hindess   391 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:06,560 suggested that um the concept blurs  the nature versus nurture divide.   392 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:15,600 And raising suzhi is both an object of  active intervention - a full governance,   393 00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:22,480 and the responsibility of individual citizens,  who must strive for becoming a high suzhi person - 394 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:29,760 who is a competitive market subject,  and a rule abiding member of society. 395 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:33,380 So 396 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:44,880 you might, you could say that, it's it's sort of  connected to, so had it has different um sources   397 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:52,080 of sort of intellectual, um inspiration.  It could say has some elements of Confucian  398 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:58,560 idea of self cultivation. And to  me it also sort of resonates with   399 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,280 um the subjects of improvement  in liberal political reason. 400 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:11,040 So anyhow I think I'm talking to long.  Thank you very much for your attention, 401 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,000 and that's all from me. 402 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:28,400 Wonderful, thank you so much. Um so we will um.  We'll take questions now. We have uh we have uh   403 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:34,320 about half an hour left for discussion. So if you  wouldn't mind um using the raised hand function,   404 00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:47,840 then I can go ahead, and call people in  order. So open up for questions or comments. 405 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:58,640 Yeah we have a question from Angela. Hi  um first of all, thank you for your talk.   406 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:06,400 You mentioned um sort of uh, I used you  kind of went beyond the Hukou myth. And um 407 00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:16,240 you um talked about how there isn't a single  determining factor of um a job in social   408 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:21,520 security for these migrants. Could you mention  what some of the other more significant factors   409 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:27,760 might be then? Because I guess like from what  I've learned in previous classes, and read it   410 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,920 really is the sort of Hukou system that ties you  to the social services you're able to access. 411 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:43,840 So answer now. Sure. I think the most  important factor is your type of job.   412 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:52,800 So you said these migrants, but you know migrants  are migrants are not limited to migrants in   413 00:56:52,800 --> 00:57:00,320 temporary low-income jobs right? There are also  migrants from Beijing to Shenzhen. As we we have   414 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:09,200 seen in that um point based systems used by um  Shenzhen public schools. So if you um own property   415 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:14,160 there, even if you don't have Shenzhen Hukou,  you still have a higher score. So you could be   416 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:20,720 it could be an urban to urban migrant. You could  have a very good job that provides you with job   417 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:26,800 security, and so on. So what we are when we of  course in this talk, we are looking at the kind   418 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:35,520 of migrant workers who often and hired by um  outsourced like human, and how do you call it,   419 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:43,920 those agencies like not not hired by companies  that would provide them with um social security.   420 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:51,280 But from the some some of the stories I've read  and documentary I've seen, there are also migrant   421 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:56,160 workers who don't want to have that kind of  jobs because they know they're going to be   422 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,920 permanently temporary. They're going to  move from city to city, factory to factory.   423 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:08,960 And if you have to pay for social security  contributions, then they are getting less,   424 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:15,760 and you won't be eligible um for getting the  benefits from those social security systems   425 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:22,800 anyway, because you won't be here anymore. So I  think it really depends on the type of employment. 426 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,080 Great, thank you. Other questions. 427 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:42,000 Yeah Mimi. Hi um thank you so much for coming  to talk with us. My question is if you think   428 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:47,520 that there's a connection, um I know you're  talking about um how some people in like   429 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,360 uh the podcast that you mentioned  were seeming to like internalize their   430 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,360 suzhi status. And I was wondering if  you think that there's a connection   431 00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,640 with that other study that you mentioned  that people aren't interested in changing   432 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,840 their Hukou status. Or if those are  sort of different different phenomena. 433 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:16,960 Like I kind of think it's it's different. It's two  different problems. So the reluctance to change   434 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:28,640 goes that status has a lot of um contributing  factors right. Such as um like the impossibility   435 00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:35,200 of getting um a house for example in the  city. The living costs is a huge concern,   436 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:43,600 and also land has to do with uh the fear of losing  land rule, land rights, and some other factors.   437 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:51,200 But these people if you ask them, if you  want to become a higher suzhi person, they   438 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:59,840 I think they would have no problem.  So it's um it's not about being   439 01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:09,680 being um belonging to um the social  class um they are confined to. 440 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,880 I think they, I don't know I think I'm   441 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:21,680 I'm losing my thoughts, but basically  I think these are two problems, and um   442 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:31,680 the thing about who about suzhi is really that  it promises improvement. It's not inherent.   443 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:39,840 So it always asks you is the government or is  if I use recording terms again. It's governing   444 01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:48,640 the self. So it's about asking you to constantly  improve yourself, and it's possible. So you should   445 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:55,840 educate yourself, you should try to raise your own  your own suzhi, and become a higher suzhi person.   446 01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:03,840 I personally really appreciate the the idea  of suzhi as as sort of self-improvement. And   447 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,840 it's a very difficult term to translate  to English. But I think that that notion   448 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,400 really kind of resonates particularly with this  American idea of constant self-improvement,   449 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,240 and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps,  and stuff. There's a lot of I think kind of   450 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:21,040 cultural resonance uh there, even if even  if the terms are still somewhat different. 451 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:29,600 So Lee has a question. Hi thank you so much  for coming to speak with us, I found this topic   452 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,880 really interesting. Um I had two questions that  came about from your talk. The first one related   453 01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:39,280 um pretty closely to Mimi's. And I might be  conceptualizing this more in like a western   454 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,400 framework almost, like we were just talking about. But would you say that suzhi is like a predictor   455 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:50,720 of being able to gain Hukou? Because you may  have access to like like a higher class of like   456 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:56,640 professionalism which would be associated with  like like different like different mannerisms,   457 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:01,600 and stuff like that. I'm not sure if that's  a far stretch um of the concepts. And then   458 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:08,400 my second question was I know the reform efforts  were kind of intended to like promote the rights   459 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:15,120 of the migrant workers. But also seemed to mostly  benefit you know the cities. So do you think that   460 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:21,360 um like migrants were actually made  better off by these reform efforts? 461 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:25,220 um 462 01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,960 On the second question, I'm not sure.  I don't I don't think I'd answer this,   463 01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:42,160 because Hukou policies, and also social policies  differ greatly from city to city, province to   464 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:48,080 province. Um so I think you really need a lot of  on-the-ground study um interviews, and so on to   465 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:54,000 find out if anyone is actually benefiting  from this. Um but on the first question,   466 01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:02,960 yes so the government, and the academics  are making this connection. That is   467 01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:12,640 we should make the city suitable. We should  make it easier for high suzhi people to settle   468 01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:19,360 in the city, so that's the rationale um if you  are a well-educated, and if you are talented,   469 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:25,840 and if you have good professional skills, then  you should be offered an opportunity in the city.   470 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:32,240 So that's really um and also the academic  the academic um discourse is about   471 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:40,480 we should raise the suzhi of migrant workers. So  that they could better integrate into the city. 472 01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:53,120 And I'm not saying that this this is  natural. I think this is constructed,   473 01:03:53,840 --> 01:04:03,760 and it's sort of producing new kind of boundaries  right. So before it is that you can't come but,   474 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:09,520 and now it's like yeah you can come when you  have improved yourself, when when you have become   475 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:16,560 a more deserving member of society, and a  more deserving competitive market actor.   476 01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:23,440 So um I think this is the  rationality the rationality behind   477 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:30,960 this discourse about the connection  between suzhi and rural to urban migration. 478 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:44,480 Pretty good, uh we have a question from  Guangzhi. Hi um can you hear me? Okay I   479 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,760 have a question um regarding the surgery  discourse. I was wondering if you saw any   480 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:57,920 difference in terms of suzhi requirement  for rural migrants versus urban residents   481 01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:06,480 in, and acknowledged you know classic national  pastime, she talked about how the suzhi discourse,   482 01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:13,440 on the nature of it how it's related to global  capitalism production, and how it produces   483 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:21,840 um docile workers right. But I was wondering  also if you saw how the requirement for suzhi  484 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:32,800 is different for urban residents, and how it's  probably more related to how maybe cities serve as 485 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:41,280 the economy the global the global um creative  economy right now. Right um, so how requirements   486 01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:46,720 for for them um are different from those  for rural residents or rural immigrants. 487 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:49,840 Um. 488 01:05:52,320 --> 01:06:00,320 So the question is about what do we mean  by suzhi when we talk about different   489 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:08,560 groups of people right? Yes like a rural, um yeah it's definitely different and so,   490 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:19,760 as I was saying it's it's very context  dependent, um and constantly evolving.   491 01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:31,360 So in the end, I don't really know what. We  use it like it's so naturalized it's like an   492 01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:41,760 everyday very everyday vocabulary um, and we use  it to describe difference and and sort of justify   493 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:55,600 hierarchy. But in the end what it exactly means  is really ambiguous to me. Um but I think the   494 01:06:55,600 --> 01:07:02,080 several points I've made earlier, or maybe  at the heart of it that is being competitive   495 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:11,840 um on the market, on the job market. And that  would have to do with educational attainment,   496 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:21,040 and sort of professional skills, and  so on. Um and then, in the context of 497 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:31,280 I think this is somehow related to um the idea of  trustworthiness in the social credit system. So   498 01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:39,680 the goal is the same, it's about creating these  um subjects that comply to contracts and laws,   499 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:46,880 so still it's very much has to do with  um with being an ideal market actor. Um 500 01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:53,040 so yeah that's that's that's that's my thoughts.   501 01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:57,920 But still, I mean I don't have a  satisfactory answer for that one. 502 01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,400 Great uh next question is from Jewell. 503 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:15,040 I'm (unintelligible), thank you for your yeah  speaking. I think the lives of the workers from   504 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:22,560 rural areas are more difficult now, well cursor  who came yeah 10 years ago over 10 yeah 20 years   505 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:31,600 ago had better lives than now. Over the past few  decades yeah house prices in the first line cities   506 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:40,160 have risen dramatically, so uh I when I  was in when I when I worked in Guangzhou,   507 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:51,120 uh there are lots of rural yeah employed you  know from yeah countryside. But they they said   508 01:08:51,120 --> 01:09:01,200 yeah the the the room prices in the Guangzhou is  very very high, so they cannot yeah live any more.   509 01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:10,480 Yeah yeah first line. So what do you think about  this problem yeah, Chenchen. Um the problem   510 01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:19,840 housing prices rising? Yeah yeah yeah yeah so  yeah so it's more difficult for a rural employee.   511 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:26,080 Yeah it's very difficult to live in. I  mean it's I think it's it's always been   512 01:09:27,440 --> 01:09:37,120 um difficult, and it's worsened. Um but for so in  my recent studies they call them first generation,   513 01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:41,920 second generation, migrant workers as  well. But actually from what I've read   514 01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:51,520 um I think you said the first generation had a  better living, life quality relatively speaking,   515 01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:58,320 but from the literature I've read is that the  second, the younger generation are more willing   516 01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:07,600 to settle in the city. Even though they might  have to bear even higher living costs. Um but the   517 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,440 they are younger, and they sort of  came to the city at a younger age,   518 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,280 and feel more integrated in  the city life, and so on.   519 01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:25,280 But then of course feeding these huge obstacles,  both institutional ones and economic ones. 520 01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:38,720 Okay okay uh next up we have Vicky. Hey um I  had a quick question about the Hukou system.   521 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:46,000 So it seems as if it's a pretty controversial  system to me, and it's led to all the reforms that   522 01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:51,440 you talked about. I was wondering what the Chinese  government's justification for the system is,   523 01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:57,680 how they justify the continuing continued  use of it, even though it seems like a lot of   524 01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:04,080 people have issues with it, and it seems like its  primary use is to exploit these migrant workers. 525 01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,000 You know most of the time they  don't have to justify what they do,   526 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:19,840 right? Um but I showed you this very early  justification from the 1950s, so as with anything,   527 01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:26,720 they could always say it's about restricting  personal freedoms for the greater good. Um and now   528 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:35,600 so there have been debates, I mean especially  from certain academics, um from certain activists,   529 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,560 um cause to abolish the system completely. 530 01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,080 And I think the government has  been responding to this through   531 01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:54,720 one thing making it more open, so opening up  especially at smaller at the level of smaller   532 01:11:54,720 --> 01:12:03,120 cities, and then also secondly by saying that  we should sort of disconnect to some degree,   533 01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:11,760 disconnect social rights, access to social rights  from local status. So promote equal access to   534 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:17,840 public services through "ju zhu zheng"  the residence permit instead of Hukou. 535 01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:25,920 So through this sort of, so  whether it has a major impact   536 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,440 is another matter, and we  need to investigate that,   537 01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:37,120 but from the from the perspective policy discourse  is a sort of response right? So even though we're   538 01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:44,320 not gonna abolish this anytime soon, but we are  making it less relevant. We are making it less an   539 01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:55,360 obstacle for you to access social rights. Um and  and I think it also in as I said in smaller cities   540 01:12:55,360 --> 01:13:05,600 is quite irrelevant, but in cities like Beijing,  Shanghai, and Shenzhen, it will always be,   541 01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:09,920 there will always be obstacles even if  there's no Hukou, there be other means.   542 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:17,840 So it's really about I think this  um hierarchy between cities as well. 543 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:22,640 Great uh Neil. 544 01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:31,760 Thanks for your talk. I found this all really  interesting, and one thing that was uh especially,   545 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:38,560 I was curious about is the way you mentioned  the um what that the delivery work organizer   546 01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:46,880 said on the podcast about suzhi. Uh because that  that made me wonder like, do you think there's   547 01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:52,720 there's an implied relationship in that statement  also between suzhi and and class consciousness,   548 01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:59,680 such that there's like such there's so much  ambiguity in the term, that suzhi could be   549 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:05,200 wheeled in kind of the opposite direction as well,  so you need a certain level of like suzhi in order   550 01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:11,920 to understand your class position, and like  because it's so vague that people could use it   551 01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:18,000 to argue for and against or kind of like take a  Marxist position, or take the state's position. 552 01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:26,800 Yeah I think that's that's an excellent point.  I mean I would need to you would need to talk   553 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:34,160 to him, to know exactly what he means by  that, and this is probably difficult right   554 01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:42,400 now to talk to him because he's disappeared.  But in that podcast um from my understanding   555 01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:49,040 so basically he was saying, from some of some of  the other discussions, he was saying that most um   556 01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:58,480 deliberate workers are selfish, so they would care  more about their pay so obviously uh instead of   557 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:04,640 organizing themselves, and and doing something  together, taking some actions, right? So 558 01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:12,000 um it's almost like an excuse, 559 01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:23,040 to sort of um you know finding explanations  um for the behavior or the preferences   560 01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:29,920 of people who have very little choices in  those situations. But in a way I think it does, 561 01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:40,720 it does connect to class consciousness even if  he was not thinking, he was not aware of it,   562 01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:47,520 like subconsciously, he might be making a  connection between suzhi and class consciousness. 563 01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:57,120 But but the the key ideas that  really um the ambiguity affairs. 564 01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:06,400 Excellent so uh next up is Fletcher, and  then I'm gonna put myself on the list.   565 01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:15,040 So yeah thank you for your talk. Um one  thing I'm wondering about suzhi is like   566 01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:23,520 it really reminds me of like american discourses  of kind of like poor blaming, and like you know   567 01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:30,320 self-improvement as as you know like poor  people should lift themselves up, and and so on.  568 01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,680 Um and I know at least in the U.S.  like there are a good number of people,   569 01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:40,480 I think who kind of just reject that uh  that framing altogether, and I'm wondering   570 01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:48,800 uh who in China plays that role if anyone of of  kind of rejecting the whole idea of suzhi at all? 571 01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:58,960 So in the U.S., you said what what are the  actors behind the promotion of this idea? 572 01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:04,800 Yeah I mean I guess I'm not even  exactly sure I guess I would say like   573 01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:14,240 politically left leaning people would generally  tend to kind of reject the the idea of of um   574 01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:22,000 like poor people just need to lift themselves  up, um so I guess I wonder if there's a similar   575 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:28,880 kind of counter discourse against suzhi,  in the same way that there is at least some   576 01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,880 level of counter discourse against kind of  other poor blaming narratives in the U.S.. 577 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:47,040 First of all in response to your first to the  question how you framed it at the beginning who is   578 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:52,800 participating in in this everyone is participating  in this, because everyone is using it.   579 01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:59,600 And in the everyday conversations, even though  they don't necessarily mean the same thing,   580 01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:08,880 but this as I said it's completely naturalized.  And it's naturalized too too easy to discuss   581 01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:14,160 differences within the nation, but  also between nations, between different   582 01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:22,000 peoples right especially like Japanese people  and German people known as having a very high   583 01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:33,440 suzhi. Um and as for counter discord, I think it's  really difficult to see in some academic circles,   584 01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:40,400 and not even in not even in Chinese language  academic circles, but mainly in the in the   585 01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:46,560 English language um academic literature. there's  a counter there's there's efforts that we made   586 01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:54,960 to deconstruct this right. But in in the  um so on social media for example where I'm   587 01:18:54,960 --> 01:19:02,080 like kind of familiar with, um there  are counter discourses to poor blaming.   588 01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:11,680 But they would not necessarily frame it as  something as a critique of the idea of suzhi. Um   589 01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:19,840 and also I mean if I have to make a really big  generalization, but I have you have to be careful   590 01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:27,360 about this, but um I think with the modernization  the mainstream modernization discourse in China,   591 01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:31,280 sort of social Darwinism  is really quite prevalent.   592 01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:40,240 And if you read my articles about the  uh right-wing nationalist discourse,   593 01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:48,400 and a little little article about the white left,  you see uh what I mean by that, so believing   594 01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:55,760 in computation, believing social  Darwinism must also believe in um this 595 01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:08,480 this cruel um um cruelest competition between  the backwards, and the more advanced people.   596 01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:18,880 Because I remember this in from my sort of  national patriotic education is that the   597 01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:22,880 lesson you learn, a crucial lesson you  learn from history is that if you are   598 01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:34,720 backwards, then you are meant to be beaten  or defeated. So this is like even though   599 01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:40,480 they teach you this at in the history lesson just  to show you that okay China now really needs to   600 01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:47,120 become, and become an advanced um nation,  so that she won't be uh um bullied anymore,   601 01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:53,680 and something like that. But this logic  is is very um much naturalized, and um 602 01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:59,840 rooted in sort of popular thinking um. 603 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:10,160 I may be generalizing too much here, but I  think that sort of social Darwinist thinking   604 01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:19,040 and should have something to do with the  lack of counter discourse um on this matter. 605 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:29,120 Thanks so that actually the the question of the  right wing response uh connects to the question   606 01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:34,880 that I wanted to ask, so I really appreciate  um the the comparative uh perspective you have   607 01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:39,680 in that 2018 article in terms of thinking about  the construction, the historical process of the   608 01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:44,080 construction of national citizenship, and how  this was something that happened in England,   609 01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:50,320 in the United States, and other places. Um and and  thinking and as you just mentioned in the talk,   610 01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:54,000 the kind of combination of bottom-up  agitation for the construction of   611 01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:59,280 national citizenship, and then sort of  top-down responses. So you know we understand   612 01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:04,640 the sort of where the push for greater Hukou liberalization is coming from, and more sort of   613 01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:10,880 integration of people into cities, and into social  services. You know but at the same time, we do   614 01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:15,280 have to acknowledge that there is a lot of um  social resistance, that this is not just like the   615 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:21,920 big bad Chinese government um keeping people out,  that that urban residents themselves have a lot   616 01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:28,400 of concerns about that, and that there have been  sort of moments of counter mobilization. I mean   617 01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:33,360 in like I think it was Suzhou, a couple years ago,  they had this sort of they were gonna reform the   618 01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:38,160 university entrance exam, and you know parents  were out on the street protesting, saying no.   619 01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:44,080 So you know so so the question is basically how  how big an issue do you think that that kind of   620 01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:53,360 popular resistance within those post-elite cities  um is for a more generalized Hukou liberalization? 621 01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:04,640 That's worrying, and I don't I'm not too familiar  with that kind of nativism in cities. I do know   622 01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:14,800 in some cities um like in Shanghai as well. So  when I think there was a sort of um attack from   623 01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:24,160 an unemployed migrant person, um he attacked  uh kindergarten, and killed a couple um kids,   624 01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:33,760 and at the time, it really um triggered a huge  backlash against um um non-local people. So   625 01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:41,440 like in they have a slang term in Shanghainese  especially for uh non-local people in the city.   626 01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:51,200 And it was there was quite a a surge in um  exclusionary nativism in that period. Um   627 01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:56,320 but I can't like assess how large that force   628 01:23:56,320 --> 01:24:03,680 is in other cities, or even in Shanghai  cuisine. It's it seems episodic, um but 629 01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:13,040 what I also find interesting is its connection  between perception of the Hukou system, and um   630 01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:23,600 xenophobia against the foreigners. Um it's it's  all connected in a way, you know xenophobia in   631 01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:28,080 um western countries or right wing populism in western countries is also   632 01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:33,200 related to your perception of your marginalization  in society right? Even though that perception   633 01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:43,280 isn't always true. But for example um last year  when China introduced this draft regulation on   634 01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:51,040 permanent residence for foreigners. There  was also a huge backlash online against um   635 01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:56,960 you know giving foreigners any rights. it's  a bit like that. And then when you look at   636 01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:06,800 those those responses, quite a lot of  them were about you know, we are not even   637 01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:12,720 equal citizens in our country. We can't  even get those rights, then why do you   638 01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:18,560 give foreigners those rights? Um so in a  way I think the perception of this internal   639 01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:26,160 inequality really also also has an  effect on anti-immigration sentiments.   640 01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:34,160 Yeah great okay uh we're almost out of time, so  uh Angela if you have one final quick question. 641 01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:46,160 Yeah so I had a question um sort of tangential  question to your response to Fletcher's comment.   642 01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:49,920 Are these ideas of social Darwinism in China   643 01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:53,840 like primarily imported from the  west recently, or do they also   644 01:25:54,480 --> 01:26:03,360 develop organically from um inside China? Since  suzhi is like is originally a Chinese concept. 645 01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:17,760 So I would trace this back to um kind of  reformist or enlightenment thinkers at the   646 01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:23,600 end of the 19th century, and the beginning of  the 20th century. So there were quite similar   647 01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:29,920 to those in Japan um around the same time  as well so they were seeing that this huge 648 01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:39,760 existential threat from western imperial  powers. And they were determined that we have   649 01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:46,080 to get strong, and if we don't get strong,  we're going to be um to become extinct.   650 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:53,920 And also there were lots of um so it was around   651 01:26:53,920 --> 01:27:00,560 that time a lot of vocabulary of social  Darwinism were introduced in to Chinese. So 652 01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:10,480 is it is it imported from the what, I would say  yes, but also I mean sort of a global circulation   653 01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:23,600 of ideas. So there's this this understanding of  of colonialism, and acceptance of logic effect.   654 01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:36,480 Um and then they continued to um shape um popular  thinking throughout throughout the 20th century,   655 01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:39,120 I would say. So 656 01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:49,840 it's definitely grown out of the encounter  with western colonialism at the end of the   657 01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:58,480 19th century. But I mean, I wouldn't say  it's like like completely a foreign idea,   658 01:27:58,480 --> 01:28:06,560 because it's foreign versus indigenous um  binaries, is also a little problematic, so   659 01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:13,840 after it got introduced then, it also got  sort of reinterpreted and or internalized. 660 01:28:16,480 --> 01:28:22,160 Okay guys uh we're a little bit over time.  Um so once again thanks to Professor Zhang   661 01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:28,320 for uh joining us today, and um hope to see  all of you guys at the next CCCI lecture   662 01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:38,800 in a few weeks. All right  have a good day, thank you!