1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:13,360 Welcome everyone. I think people are still  uh joining uh the zoom, but I'd like to   2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:19,040 get started. My name is Allen Carlson. I'm an  Associate Professor in the Government Department   3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,280 and the director of Cornell's  China-Asia-Pacific Studies or CAPS program.   4 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:31,360 I'm thrilled to be hosting this fall's  Cornell Contemporary China Initiative or CCCI.   5 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:39,600 Uh and wanted to begin uh simply by thanking the  East Asia Program, particularly Andrea and Josh   6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:46,400 for leading the program and supporting CCCI. Amala  for her expert logistical assistants. You've all   7 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,840 been able to get into the room because of her.  Uh and also I'd like to thank CAPS and the donors   8 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:57,840 for CAPS for their support of the program.  And Tracy as well for her technical support.   9 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:05,760 The series this fall revolves around a simple,  a seemingly simple question. What is China? But   10 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,440 as the invited speakers uh to the series grapple  with how China is understood both historically,   11 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,920 and in the contemporary period. They'll show that  forwarding answers to this query is anything but   12 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,120 straightforward. They'll also expand upon the  short - what is China - interrogative to ask   13 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,240 questions, such as what are the constraints of  thinking of China as being co-determinate with   14 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:31,520 the People's Republic of China. What other  spaces open up if we critically engage the   15 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:37,600 almost naturalized tendency to make such a move.  What practices are employed both by states and   16 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,400 peoples to give meaning to the construct of China,  and to determine who belongs within its borders,   17 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:48,240 and who is outside its territory. They'll also  demonstrate that necessarily such questions also   18 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:53,680 then touch upon what is not China and explore  the contentious relationship between the central   19 00:01:53,680 --> 00:02:00,000 Chinese polity, and peoples and places along its  contested periphery. The series then utilizes an   20 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,440 intentionally interdisciplinary perspective, and  makes use of both historical, and contemporary   21 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,560 lenses. And in so doing, it but touches upon  some of the most pressing and significant   22 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,920 political and social issues now facing China  and the rest of the world. The first of our   23 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:21,040 speakers in the series is Barbara Demick. She's  the author of "Eat the Buddha" which was listed   24 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:26,960 among the best non-fiction of 2020 by the New York  Times, the Washington Post, the Financial Times.   25 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:32,320 Every other publication that's ever come out.  Subsequent talks will be given by James Millward   26 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,720 of Georgetown, C.K. Lee of UCLA and Shelley  Rigger of Davidson. All talks will be held online,   27 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,240 and they're open to everyone. So please  register, and tell your friends as well.   28 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,080 As for today's talk, Barbara is the former Bureau  Chief of the Los Angeles Times in Beijing and   29 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,640 Seoul, and previously reported from the Middle  East and Balkans for the Philadelphia Inquirer.   30 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,320 Her writing has won awards too numerous to list.  And she has also been a press fellow at the   31 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,560 Council on Foreign Relations at Bagehot (I don't  know if that's the right pronunciation.) fellow   32 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,760 in Business Journalism at Columbia University ,and  a Visiting Professor of Journalism at Princeton.   33 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,600 She'll speak today for about 40 minutes, and  this will be followed by an Q&A. Just in terms   34 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,800 of housekeeping, please put any questions you  have for Barbara in the chat box during the talk.   35 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,280 I'll be collecting these over the course of her  lecture, and pulling from this virtual cue for   36 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,400 the start of our Q&A period for about 15 minutes.  And I'll also be leaving a period for additional   37 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:33,840 live questions from the audience for the last  15 minutes or so of today's event. We're using   38 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:39,120 this format to promote the open exchange of views,  and to help moderate conversation in a manner that   39 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,560 will hopefully lead to a productive and enriching  discussion of the issues consistent with Cornell's   40 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:50,000 core values. The title of Barbara's talk today  is - I think I have this right "At The Edge of   41 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:59,840 China - Life in a Tibetan Town". With no further  ado, Barbara, albeit virtually welcome to Cornell. 42 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Thank you Allen for that warm introduction.  And thank you Amala for setting everything   43 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:14,080 up. It's um, life is so complicated these  days. Um as Allen um explained, I'm a   44 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:20,960 journalist not an academic, so I feared that  my observations will be somewhat anecdotal.   45 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,880 And I'll start with an anecdote  about my family and my life in China. 46 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:37,440 I moved to Beijing in 2007 to become China  Bureau Chief, and one of the first trips   47 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:45,520 I took was out to western China with my son,  who is then um eight years old. And we went to   48 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:53,200 a place called "Jia Yu Guan" at the the western  edge of the Great Wall. It's in Gansu province.   49 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,960 All the way west. And we were with a group of  tourists. Most of them Chinese. And my son said,   50 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:08,080 it seems like China should end here, this  is the end of China right. And basically   51 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:16,320 the Chinese tourists who spoke English glared at  him because it was not the end of China. China is 52 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:25,280 goes far beyond what most people think  of as China. And for those of us who have   53 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:31,760 been correspondents of China, expats, people who  visited, what what we think of as China is really   54 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:38,160 the east coast. It's it's like the Northeast  Corridor on Amtrak, instead of going from   55 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Boston to Washington, we go from Beijing  to Shanghai, sometimes down to Guangzhou,   56 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:52,320 um you know maybe as far west as Chongqing,  which my friend Ivan Osnos calls like the Chicago   57 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,400 of China. But most of China is  the People's Republic of China   58 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:05,840 is um out west. And I will start but  with a map, hopefully this will work. 59 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:09,760 You guys see the map? 60 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,520 Yes yeah okay. So you can see where Chongqing is.   61 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:23,280 Um you know pretty far east, but beyond  that, beyond that, the great beyond,   62 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:33,840 you have mostly um you know what had been  historically Tibetan, and Uyghur, Muslim lands um   63 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:41,440 of populated by people who did not necessarily  speak Chinese, and didn't think of themselves as   64 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:49,920 Chinese, which is part of what has caused so much  anxiety on the part of the Chinese government. 65 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:58,720 The I'm writing about Tibet.  So the almost equally confusing   66 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,400 question is like what is Tibet. And  so I'm going to show you another map.   67 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:11,600 Um and this is might clarified what  is marked here as Tibet Central. This   68 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,840 is what the Chinese government considers to  be Tibet. It's the Tibet autonomous region. 69 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:27,680 The places marked Amdo and Kham. The green, the  gray, and the purple um were also historically   70 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:35,760 Tibetan, and have very large Tibetan populations.  In fact, a majority of Tibetans live outside   71 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:42,640 of um the the official Tibet in these areas.  And then you can see Xinjiang on the top left   72 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:51,600 which is predominantly Uyghur was predominantly  Uyghur and Muslim. It's a big big piece of China. 73 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:02,400 It's really interesting um dealing with Tibet,  because as a journalist, I traveled mostly in   74 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,480 Sichuan province. Starting very early on  from the time I moved to China in 2007,   75 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:16,880 I knew I wanted to write about you know what was  out there beyond. I mean for various reasons,   76 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,640 for one my Chinese wasn't great; all my  colleagues seemed to have been studying   77 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:26,400 Chinese from the time they were 12; and I  was not really a China expert, but the east   78 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,600 eastern part of China seemed to  be well covered, but not the west.   79 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:38,160 So I started traveling pretty much from the  time I um I moved China into the parts of   80 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:46,880 Tibet that are Sichuan, Qinghai province, Amdo and Kham in the eyes of Tibetans. And this is very   81 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:52,480 interesting because you know if you know anything  about Tibet, you've heard that it was the Chinese   82 00:08:53,440 --> 00:09:02,160 invaded in 1950, but these parts of Tibet  sometimes known as um ethnographic Tibet or   83 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:09,200 outer Tibet were actually annexed by the Qing  dynasty in the 18th century. So they've been   84 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:14,480 technically, one could say part of  China for a long time. But they're 85 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,000 very very Tibetan. And the thing about  Tibet when you say, what is Tibet   86 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:29,840 is like when you're in Tibet, you know you're  in Tibet. I mostly I mostly traveled by   87 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:37,760 um flying to Chengdu which is in Sichuan  province, just um west of Chongqing, and driving   88 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,480 onto the Tibetan plateau. And it's a very  interesting trip, because you know you start   89 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:53,120 in China, and you know you have modern China ring  roads, malls, lots of traffic, and driving out of   90 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:59,280 um north in Sichuan province, north west in  Sichuan province, you drive through these   91 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:08,800 ravines that are very rocky with um you know sort  of mountains on both sides and a lot of trees.   92 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:15,040 And then all of a sudden that the mountains fall  away, the trees fall away, and the sky opens up,   93 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,960 and you're in Tibet. And you know you're  in Tibet. And it's it's like you've just   94 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,920 stepped through the wardrobe into Narnia  or something. It's this magical place,   95 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:32,240 and you you know even before you see your first  yak, you have no doubt about where you are.   96 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:39,760 And is it China? You know, I don't  I don't know if it's China. But um   97 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:48,160 it's um it's very Tibetan, and it's not  peripheral to Tibet. This part of um   98 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,160 this part of the Tibetan plateau in my  book I say Tibetan plateau, because it's   99 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:01,040 gets around you know the the  difficulty of saying what is Tibet   100 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:08,320 um is very central to Tibetan history, and it's  um you know where a lot of the great Lamas were   101 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:18,320 born. The most famous living Tibetan of all the  14th Dalai Lama is from this region Amdo. And um   102 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:28,480 it's also been um you know kind of the engine  of the Tibetan resistance in the last couple   103 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:36,080 of decades. Um the Tibet autonomous region has  actually been rather quiet except for some um   104 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:44,240 protests in 2008. But this this area of  eastern Tibet has been you know somewhat   105 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:55,040 seething, and um the town that I wrote about - Ngaba um became famous, and I'm going to show   106 00:11:55,040 --> 00:12:03,120 you in the next slide, became famous starting  in 2009 for a series of self-immolations. 107 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:05,920 And 108 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:16,000 starting with monks, um these starting with  young monks, these young peoples began lighting   109 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:24,960 themselves on fire in protests against China's  rule, Chinese rule. And these were largely   110 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:33,280 non-violent protests, nobody was hurt other than  the Tibetans themselves, who immolated themselves.   111 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:45,760 But it was um a great embarrassment to the Chinese  Communist Party. It was a statement of we're not   112 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,240 happy. The Chinese Communist Party invests an  enormous amount of energy in trying to show   113 00:12:50,960 --> 00:13:00,080 that the Chinese rule is welcome, and that  Tibetans are happy. And so this little town   114 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,840 Ngaba, I don't know if you can see it  you see the little number 45 there.   115 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:14,240 That that town which nobody had ever heard  of before, many people hadn't heard of became   116 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:24,160 kind of world famous as the the epicenter of  the self-immolation. And I decided I would   117 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:32,240 write about it not so much just for um because of  the self-immolations themselves, but I've always   118 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:38,720 been interested in writing about microcosms.  I did a book about one street in Sarajevo.   119 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:46,320 I did a book about one city in North Korea.  And I thought I would pick one Tibetan town,   120 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,040 and just try to get to know everything  about it. And if I was going to pick a town,   121 00:13:51,920 --> 00:14:00,320 it was going to be this town, because this was  actually became the hardest place in China to   122 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:07,920 visit um for journalists especially. And so this  is kind of a strange thing as a as a foreign   123 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,920 correspondent, I had a press card, and I was  you know a proper visa. As journalists on paper,   124 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,280 we were allowed to go anywhere in China  except for the Tibet autonomous region which   125 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:25,680 um you need a special permit to go there. But  for most people, tourists tourists with money   126 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,960 it's not that hard to go to Lhasa and  central Tibet. But this particular area   127 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:39,520 which had so much unrest was really closed  off, and even before the self-immolations,   128 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:46,800 journalists couldn't go there - even regular  foreigners, people who had a family there   129 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:53,360 weren't allowed to check into hotels with foreign  passports. It was always um you know what we call   130 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,040 a China "min gan" sensitive. And you know the  thing about journalists is we always want to   131 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,400 go where people don't want us to go. I guess  is why so many um people don't like us. So   132 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:11,920 you know I really wanted to go to Ngaba, and  find out what what this was all about. And um   133 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,360 it was not it was also not  just um about self-immolation.   134 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:24,480 I knew that this this town had you  know this incredible history. It had   135 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:32,800 its own kingdom. It had various bits  of unrest in the 1950s, and the 1960s,   136 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:40,320 and something that's very interesting about this  town which I discovered when I started researching   137 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:48,960 is that it was really the first place  where the Chinese Communist Party   138 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:57,520 encountered Tibetans on the ground. And this  was way back in the 1930s during the Long March   139 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:08,320 when the Red Army was in retreat from Eastern  China, fleeing the Nationalists. And they fled   140 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:16,960 fled fled westward westward through Sichuan, and  then started to climb into the Tibetan plateau,   141 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:23,520 um just escaping. It was really it's a Long  March, but it was really the long escape. "The   142 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:30,160 Great Escape." And when they got to the Tibetan  plateau, they had um you know very few supplies.   143 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,840 This was not the army that it is today. They  had very few supplies, no food, and they started 144 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:44,880 basically looting Tibetan homes, and fields,  and monasteries. And in the monasteries,   145 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:52,560 they discovered that there were small votive  statues made of flour and butter. And they   146 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,000 ate these statues. And this this is from a  memoir by one of the Red Army soldiers' and   147 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:05,120 that's where the title of my book comes from.  "Eat the Buddha". And needless to say, this made   148 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:13,600 a bad impression on the Tibetans. And it  started off, you know very very bad relations.   149 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:21,360 And the the actually, the accounts of these  um of these encounters in the 1930s were very   150 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:28,240 interesting as well, because the the Chinese Red  Army soldiers; many of whom were very idealistic.   151 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:37,840 You know were really confused about what was  going on. And there's one scene in a a memoir,   152 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,920 where one of these memoirs I think  it was the one by um Sun Shuyun;   153 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:49,280 where the a soldier asked his commander, Chinese  soldier says like, where are we, are we still in   154 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:55,600 China. And um the commander says, I don't know.  Let's try to find somebody who speaks Chinese,   155 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:02,160 and nobody did speak Chinese. So you know in  their perception, they were not really in um   156 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:15,120 in China anymore. And I will show you um um this  is what the entrance to Ngaba looked like around   157 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:22,960 the time that I first started visiting. Um I think  this picture was taken in 2012, not by me because   158 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:31,520 I was too nervous, but by somebody else. So this  town - Ngaba became completely barricaded off, um   159 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:42,240 from not only um journalists, but any visitors  from um any Tibetans. And again this was part   160 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:51,200 of what piqued my interest. Um the other thing  that was very interesting about Ngaba is that the   161 00:18:52,000 --> 00:19:02,640 um it had had its own kingdom for  many many years um really up to 1958. 162 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:11,680 This part of Eastern Tibet was not part  of was not really reporting to the Dalai   163 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:20,000 Lamas and laws. It was very independent, very  independent minded. And um there had been and,   164 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:28,880 the kingdom had existed for maybe 300 years. Often  run by women. It was a bit of a matriarchy, and   165 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:36,480 in fact there was a great queen who had um tried  to um fight the Red Army in the 1930s, and lost.   166 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:46,640 But her her son also tried to protect the  kingdom in the 1950s. And it turned out that   167 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:53,680 her um her daughter, the granddaughter of  the queen, the daughter of this last king   168 00:19:54,480 --> 00:20:05,840 is still alive. And she became  a central figure in my book. 169 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:19,760 So this this is the ruling family. And my book  actually opens um in 1958 with the story of this   170 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,440 family. The little girl, she looks kind of  like a boy because her hair is very short.   171 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:37,200 In the front is Gonpo. She's seven, eight years  old at this time. And the very opening scene   172 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:44,480 of the book is when she comes home from a  family funeral, and finds that her palace   173 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:51,760 which is in Ngaba is surrounded by  soldiers, and the Red Army has come   174 00:20:52,640 --> 00:21:01,600 and camped out on what's basically her lawn,  and is evicting the family, basically deposing   175 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:09,840 the king and his relatives. And she goes  into um exile at that time. She goes to um   176 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:19,040 Chengdu, and then eventually um is um kind  of educated as a member of the Tibetan elite.   177 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:29,360 In Beijing, is exiled during the Cultural  Revolution to the far northwest. And she's an   178 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:40,560 amazing story. I'll show you more of the photos  from this period. This is her father who is um 179 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:53,600 sort of the glum man back left, um meeting with  um various officials. You see the young Dalai Lama   180 00:21:54,160 --> 00:22:03,360 um sort of in the middle, and the Panchen Lama to  the left. And they were brought to Beijing in an   181 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:11,840 attempt in 54 to sort of co-opt them, and get  elicit their support for the Communist Party, 182 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:21,040 which did not in fact happen, and  um Gonpo's father actually ended up   183 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,840 committing suicide during the Cultural  Revolution when he was tormented. 184 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,680 This is the last photo of her family  taken in Chengdu, really on the eve of   185 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:42,400 the Cultural Revolution. She's in the back left.  Her father and mother in the front. Her sister and   186 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,000 a um an aunt. She and her aunt  were the only ones who survived,   187 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:54,640 beyond that year everybody else was dead, in  really a few months after this photo was taken.   188 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:04,960 And um this is her today. I can take a  little break if anybody has questions or   189 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:13,280 I'll just keep on um speaking. Allen? Yeah  no um Barbara. This is this is great so far   190 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,400 um, and I think maybe we could continue. I just  this does give me a chance to remind everyone   191 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,760 also though, that if you do have questions,  just put them into the chat um function,   192 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,200 and we'll kind of collect those, and return  to them. I already have a whole bunch.   193 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:35,600 But um but I'm one of 70 odd idiot people here so  I'll be quiet um, and let you continue. This is   194 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:41,920 this is great, thank you. All right. Thank you!  Um anyway, as I said this book is really told   195 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:48,640 from the um the standpoint of these people. And  she's I mean I won't go through her whole story,   196 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:56,240 but she's really fascinating, because she's she's  really a living example of this confusion about   197 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:03,680 you know what is Tibet, what is China. She's  um basically educated in Chinese in the um   198 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:12,640 the 50s and 60s. She's an excellent student. She  completely forgets her mother tongue of Tibetan.   199 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:24,480 And ends up in in exile in Xinjiang, marrying a  Chinese man from Nanjing, and becoming basically   200 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:32,560 Chinese. She her Chinese is so good, that  she teaches school in Chinese in Nanjing. And   201 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,960 um at some point just around the time of her 40th  birthday, she has kind of a mid-life crisis, and   202 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:49,200 realizes you know - I am I'm the daughter of this  great dynasty. I'm a Tibetan, and I don't speak my   203 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:59,440 mother tongue. I don't know really much about  Tibet. And she goes to sort of rediscover her   204 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:06,160 her language, and her family, and her legacy.  And I won't give away too much of the story,   205 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:15,280 but she's obviously this not obviously this  this photo was taken in India. Um she she, 206 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,920 well basically what happened is she   207 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:33,120 went in 1989 to make a um a pilgrimage to India.  She wanted to see the Dalai Lama, who she had met   208 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:39,040 as a child. And she wanted to study Tibetan, and  it was supposed to be sort of a sabbatical of a   209 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:47,040 couple of months. But um various things happened  - including the crackdown at Tiananmen Square,   210 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:56,160 the death of the Panchen Lama, the atmosphere was  just not conducive for her returning to China. And   211 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:03,440 um it's been very tragic for her family, because  she made this trip to India with one um with one   212 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,120 of her daughters. But her husband and the other  daughter remained in China. And it's like the   213 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:16,400 the division between the Tibetans and the Chinese  government runs you know right through her family.   214 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:27,440 Um another key person in my book is um. Oh  sorry this is um this is her house in Ngaba,   215 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,040 which is her palace, which is still there.  The um the wooden structure is the toilet. 216 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480 Well I won't go into that, but  it's it's quite ecologically sound.   217 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:48,960 This person his name is Delek. And he is a  contemporary of Gonpo's. And we meet him in   218 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:55,840 the book when he's also seven years old. And he  lives in a village called Meruma, just to the east   219 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:03,360 of Ngaba. And most of the people in Meruma were  subjects of the king. The king used to keep his 220 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,120 his animals in Meruma and  um also the army in Meruma,   221 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:23,040 and Delek came from a somewhat elite family, and  he tells um the story of what happened in 1958.   222 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:31,120 (19)58 was when um basically the Chinese  Communist Party decided to collectivize 223 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:41,520 this part of Tibet, and confiscated the animals,  and the farms, and people's property. And he tells   224 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:49,200 this story about being a seven-year-old boy hiding  in a laundry basket when um people came, and   225 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:56,400 um ripped out, his basically brutalized, his um  grandparents who were taking care of him - pulled   226 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:03,840 out his grandmother's braids, strung up his  grandfather um from the rafters of their house, 227 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:14,240 burned all their books, and you know anything  that was involved Tibetan Buddhism. And   228 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:23,680 this this period um this is an aside, I could  speak for hours. But you know if if some of you   229 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,840 are familiar with Tibet, you know  you hear the story, you know in 1950,   230 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:38,960 the Red Army invaded Tibet in 1950.  Things were okay for a while in 1959, um   231 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:45,680 the after some problems the Dalai Lama  fled. But everything is a little bit off the   232 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:53,520 timeline in this part of Tibet. In this part  of Tibet, things really started in 1958.   233 00:28:54,320 --> 00:29:04,960 In this whole part of Eastern Tibet, and the  um it was so traumatic that the um the Tibetans   234 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:13,360 just refer to it as 58 from this area. It's the  same way we say 911, 58 is just shorthand for this   235 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,160 this year when time collapsed,  the earth fell, they have various   236 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:29,760 expressions for it, but basically it was a very  very brutal takeover. Um and I personally think   237 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:37,120 that one reason that Eastern Tibet has been  um through the engine of Tibetan resistance   238 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:45,120 was because of these things that happened in  the 1950s. I mean there's so much history here,   239 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,480 but you know this was the period of the Great Leap  Forward, where there was also you know tremendous   240 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:58,000 um famine throughout China but everything that  happened to the Han Chinese, happened worse to   241 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:08,160 the Tibetans, and just an enormous percentage of  the population perished in 58, 59 these years. 242 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:19,200 The there was mass incarceration of many  of the men, other people, and some of the   243 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:26,800 women too - people um starved. You know by  some accounts, 30 percent of the population   244 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:34,640 died in these years. It really was you know  their great catastrophe. And you know I've   245 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,360 heard from many Tibetans of this era who lived  through this area saying, you know, if they could   246 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:47,120 just apologize for this apologize for the way  um the Chinese government is always asking for   247 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,600 apologies for the Nanjing massacre, you know we  could move on, we could live together. But this   248 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:03,360 this episode has never really gotten an apology  um briefly under Hu Yaobang who was a very liberal   249 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:10,000 Chinese legal leader. So I don't know, this  is a long digression. But anyway this man, um   250 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:19,280 Delek was a boy in this period. He was involved  in an uprising against the Chinese Communist Party   251 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:26,480 in the 1960s as well. I won't even go into that  because it's sort of a long story um, and he's   252 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:37,200 um sort of an amateur historian, and he has he  knows everybody who was killed in these years. And   253 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:45,360 um a fascinating person, and again the book  follows a lot of his story from childhood. I   254 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:53,440 tend to for whatever reason, I like people who  are kids, that this telling a story through the   255 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,840 eyes of children, or young people is sort of  effective. And you can see how they develop,   256 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:08,560 and this brings me to the next person who I  call in the book - Dongtuk which means I'm   257 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:21,440 wild baby yak. He's obviously a monk. Um he's um  also lives in India now. And um but we meet him   258 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:31,600 um also when he's seven years old. And he comes  from Meruma from a very very poor family. His   259 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:39,520 parents weren't married - his mother was raised  by a single mother who was somewhat disabled.   260 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,960 And he tells um sort of also the  story of just being an ordinary kid,   261 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:55,760 and having a um political awakening. He went to  when he was seven - the traditional age he went   262 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:04,160 he was enrolled at Kirti monastery which is the  main monastery in Ngaba. And Ngaba also became   263 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,240 really the center of the self-immolations,  the first self-immolations were there. And he   264 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,320 lost several friends - that way one of  his childhood friends, a half brother. And   265 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:29,120 he um he in the book really sort of has a lot  of analysis of the self-immolations, and why   266 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:39,600 people did it, why they resorted to this really  drastic, and painful form of self-abrogation. 267 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:50,240 And he talks a lot about life in the monastery. I  have a few pictures here. This is Kirti monastery,   268 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:58,800 and the monks debating. This picture was taken I  think in 2014. Um you know debating is just the...   269 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,280 Well I'm not going to go into the  other goods. This is the the central   270 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:11,760 part of the education of young Tibetan  males. And this is the um the general store   271 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:18,400 at Kirti monastery. And I like this picture  because you can see in the poster on the top   272 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:28,320 left you can see the 14th Dalai Lama. This photo  was taken in 2014. In 2015, the photo came down.   273 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,240 I don't know if it's up or not. But there's this  whole thing with the photo of the Dalai Lama. It's   274 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:40,240 in certain periods, you're allowed to display it.  In certain periods, you're not allowed to display   275 00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:48,160 it. You're never allowed to display it in Lhasa,  and central Tibet. But and in Ngaba, it goes up   276 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,200 and down. And people usually keep the portrait on  a sort of a loose cord so you can stash it away. 277 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:02,880 Um this is um Tsegyam - he was Ngaba's  one intellectual. He was the head of the   278 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,360 middle school, really the first school  in Ngaba that taught in Tibetan language.   279 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:18,960 And he got in trouble early  on for um well basically 280 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:31,680 um writing up free Tibet posters, and having his  students um put them up around Ngaba. And he fled,   281 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:39,680 and he's now um living in also in Dharamshala,  working with the Dalai Lama. And he has a whole   282 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:49,120 very interesting story of his awakening.  And just some more photos of the area.   283 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:56,080 Another very central figure, and I have  not put her photo in because I don't use   284 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,840 her real name. The other people are sort  of you know known. (It) is a woman who I   285 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,960 call "Dolma". And I've had this kind of figure  actually in several of my books. But she's a   286 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:17,120 not well educated um woman, who works  in the market. She's like basically   287 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:26,560 forced into a marriage with an already married man  when she's a teenager, has a very very hard life,   288 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:36,560 but was like very smart about um the Tibetan  situation. And um I liked her because she was   289 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:43,760 like the most, kind of regular person of  um the people in my book. And she was also   290 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:50,720 like very um honest about what improved under the  Chinese Communist Party, and what didn't improve.   291 00:36:51,520 --> 00:37:02,160 Um you know she again she was not a really  political person or a rebel. But she became   292 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:09,680 kind of turned off by the Chinese government, even  though her economic standing had approved under   293 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:18,400 the under Chinese rule, because they kept on  closing the monastery. And she was one of this   294 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:25,520 group of people whose whole life revolved around  the monastery - doing the circumambulation, um   295 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:32,640 praying - this this was her whole existence.  And when they started closing the monasteries,   296 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:41,280 and keeping the public out of the monasteries,  she left at great personal expense. She also is   297 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:50,560 living in India in much poorer circumstances  than she had back in Tibet. But she um wanted   298 00:37:50,560 --> 00:38:03,840 to um you know basically be free. And this is a  video, I don't know if it'll play but let's try. 299 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:19,520 Um this is also um outside Kirti monastery.  And you know these these monasteries are   300 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:27,520 just the anchor of Tibetan culture and society.  You know going to circumambulate -that's your   301 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,480 that's your exercise; that's your gym; it's  your market. Here they're selling mushrooms   302 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:40,240 outside the market, but all of the markets are  near the monastery. And it's just so integral to   303 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:49,360 Tibetan culture, and the life of the town. And  when they when they close the monasteries or   304 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:57,040 forbid people from visiting, it just it  destroys really everything in the community.   305 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,960 This is um we're just some of the people  who used to hang out at the monastery. 306 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,280 Just here's a view from the stupa. I'm  just going to show you quickly some photos.   307 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:31,520 This is like downtown um - you see um the sign,  the signage is much more in Chinese nowadays. Um   308 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:37,120 I don't read Tibetan. I'm told that the Tibetan  is very problematic. And they at one point told   309 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,160 the shopkeepers they had to put Tibetan on  the sign, so that it would look Tibetan but   310 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:50,160 some of it is um not really um grammatical. I  mean Tibetan is a very difficult language. Um   311 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,560 but it has this this facade of Tibetanness. And  even though foreigners can't visit this town,   312 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:03,680 um you know there's always a great um  interest in making sure it looks Tibetan. 313 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:13,440 And this is some of the murals. APC was always there when I was there.   314 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,280 This is um a businessman I  met. I don't show his face,   315 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:27,760 but he um he lives near the palace of this  king. And this is a portrait of the king.   316 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:35,920 And he he's a very integral figure also  in my book. He's in the last chapter   317 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:46,800 where he talks about his life in in Ngaba. And  he's quite successful. He has a lot of property.   318 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:54,880 He has a condo, and Chengdu - a couple of houses,  some very nice cars. And you know he told me and   319 00:40:54,880 --> 00:41:00,560 this is the title of my last chapter "I have  everything in life I might want except for my   320 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:07,920 freedom". And the thing that really wrangles him  is that he can't get a passport. Um so you know,   321 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:15,680 he sees his Chinese friends going to - oh his wife  is Chinese too - um going to Thailand, and Europe.   322 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:21,680 And he can't go anywhere because he doesn't  have a passport. Very very typical of Tibetans,   323 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:28,400 even the ones who are um you know successful,  and not particularly political - no passports. 324 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:39,360 And these are just some more recent shots of  some of the a lot of development. This is like   325 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:45,280 looking south of Ngaba across the river. There's  a whole new Chinese city being built. And they're   326 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:53,680 bringing in a lot of um a lot of Han Chinese,  um including a lot of Han Chinese from Sichuan,   327 00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:03,120 you know after there was this huge earthquake  in 2008 in Sichuan province, in um also in   328 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:12,240 Ngaba prefecture nearby. And the um you know many  people, many Chinese who lost their their homes,   329 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:20,640 moved further afield again into the Tibetan areas.  And you know there's a lot of issues about um you   330 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:27,600 know the dilution of the culture, but um this  is like a new bridge they built to lead to the   331 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,360 Chinese neighborhood, and it's you know in the  Tibetan style with the endless knots. But um 332 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:41,600 it's you know, it's basically to connect the  new Chinese portion of the city. And you know,   333 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:51,120 more construction. Um after the self-immolations,  the local government started distributing tents to   334 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:57,840 the Tibetan nomads, sort of to make them  happier, and this is one of the tents. 335 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,440 Um you know also they did this  like Potemkin village thing,   336 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,160 where they repainted some of the houses. 337 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:12,320 The local police station - this is Meruma. 338 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:19,680 Um this is kind of a recent picture. I think  this was from um late 2019. There's um it's   339 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:25,680 a propaganda lecture in Meruma. And uh this was  you can see the label this - I took this from the 340 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:32,960 Aba "Sheng" local government that  was from their Weibo account. 341 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,080 There's uh, we can go on and on. But there's  a lot of discussion. You know is Tibet as   342 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:46,640 bad as Xinjiang, or people being forced  into these patriotic education sessions.   343 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:53,520 And a lot of debate about this among  Tibetologists. I mean I wanted to tell   344 00:43:53,520 --> 00:44:02,880 you more. But um the answer is basically no. But  there's a lot of um coercion to attend patriotic   345 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:09,600 education sessions. This picture was taken in  December. And it's not snowy, but it's cold,   346 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,160 and you know you could bet that these people  didn't really want to be sitting outside   347 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:21,920 in December listening to a lecture on the  virtues of the Chinese Communist Party. So um   348 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:36,320 that is I could go on and on, but um I think um  I will stop the share, and let you ask questions. 349 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:42,400 Um thank you so much Barbara, and it's it's  a really um a rich story, and one that really   350 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:49,040 shows a degree of um of entrepreneurialship  on your part as a reporter to get out there,   351 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:54,000 and um to get to these regions. You know I think  one of the things that struck me about the book,   352 00:44:54,000 --> 00:45:00,000 and about your presentation um is the degree  to which we're talking here about a sort of   353 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:06,240 in-between place right. Jonathan Lipman and his  work on Chinese-speaking Muslims talked about   354 00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:12,960 the Gansu corridor as being on the periphery  of the periphery right. So dynastic China,   355 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:18,960 whatever other dynasties were there, were arguably  on outside of a little bit the global system. And   356 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,640 then and then these themselves were in between.  And and one of the processes I think we're seeing   357 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,480 in looking at Ngaba, in other regions like this,  is how they're incorporated into the modern nation   358 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:36,880 state, and the impact that has. Um it strikes me  there's only three periods that you're looking at   359 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:44,720 in your work, and in the book. One would be from  post 49 through 58 59, the the Great Leap Forward,   360 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,880 the second would be what the Tibetans I think  sometimes talk about is the golden era of reform,   361 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:57,520 when it seemed that after Hu Yaobang's semi  apology um about the policies during the Cultural   362 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,560 Revolution. There's a little bit more opening,  a little bit of hope that perhaps there would be   363 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,520 um more autonomy given to the regions, and  what occurs during that period. And then   364 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,840 jumping forward to 2011, 2012 the  self-immolations and their aftermath um.   365 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,120 And so I think like maybe we could orient our  conversation around those three periods. But   366 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,440 from the first one, what I really wanted to ask  you when looking at people like Gonpo, and others,   367 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:30,160 and their stories is um you know, and when we  look at the 1950s, one question to ask, and I   368 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:37,520 think has asked a lot is um is Chinese policy, and  Tibet truly a tragedy. In other words, could it   369 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:43,040 have maybe ended up differently, um was there  another another trajectory to be followed. Um   370 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:51,280 might there have been a way in which there would  have been less coercion, less force used, less   371 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,840 loss of life, less suffering. And so I'm  curious when you talk to the people who   372 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,880 you were interviewing, your (unintelligible). Did  they look at this as a tragedy? Or did they look   373 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:09,840 at it as something which was kind of steeled in  from the moment the Chinese entered the plateau? 374 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,080 I think um. 375 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:25,440 I think people are not as quite anti-Chinese  Communist Party as you know one would assume. Um   376 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,960 you know there's always a sense when you  talk to people in Ngaba. I mean they don't   377 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:38,320 you know always tell you exactly what they  think, but that um the original concept of   378 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:46,320 Chinese Socialism was good. Um I think there  was like widespread support for the idea of   379 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:54,240 you know, breaking up some of the power of the  monasteries, um breaking up the wealth of the   380 00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:01,120 elites, redistributing wealth. I think there's  quite a broad support for Socialism as a whole   381 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:10,160 what there was not was for the destruction of  their religion and their culture, and people   382 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:15,520 will often, the people who are better educated  you know often say, you know well Mao himself   383 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,720 you know promised that we would have freedom of  religion. There's always this sense in China,   384 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:25,600 I mean everywhere in China, that it's the emperor  is good. It's like the local officials are bad.   385 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:37,200 Um but the the people who I spoke to you know  tended to you know see some good that came out of   386 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:45,200 China's reform and opening, the modernization, and  you know really in places like Ngaba - actually   387 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:54,160 most of Tibet, it was pretty quiet. It's been  pretty quiet till um you know since the 80s. Um   388 00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:02,720 and a lot, frankly, a lot of the unrest has  been self-afflicted, inflicted by the Chinese   389 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,240 Communist Party. And I mean, I think this,  we could talk about this in terms of Hong   390 00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:15,200 Kong too where the overreaction to any kind  of um dissonant speech causes a crackdown,   391 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:23,680 that causes you know unrisks. And I heard that  for many of the people in the book like Gonpo, for   392 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:30,240 example, you know was very upset, has always been  very upset that the Chinese Communist Party is   393 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:35,280 is insulting the Dalai Lama. And she's like you  know I could live with Chinese rule, if they   394 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,480 would stop, you know saying these sacrilegious  things about the Dalai. It's just sacrilege. But   395 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,840 you know it's very offensive to Tibetans. There  he's there a spiritual leader even to people   396 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:51,840 who are critical of some of his policies,  and some of his ideas. It's offensive. So   397 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:59,360 you know, I think it could, I think it could  be better. And I don't see, I mean one of the   398 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:07,120 points I don't see among Tibetans - this kind of  deep-seated ethnic animosity towards Han Chinese.   399 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,840 I mean there are some. But it's not  like some of the things with between   400 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,840 Buddhists and Muslims - these like centuries old.   401 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:23,120 Um you know ethnic fuse, and I've covered  ethnic fuse. I mean I started in Bosnia.   402 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:32,400 That there's an enormous number of mixed marriages  in this part of Tibet. And they're not forced by   403 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,800 government. They just happens. I mean a lot of  the people in my book, a lot of the translators   404 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:48,160 who worked on this um had Chinese partners, and  you know, I don't I don't hear people um saying,   405 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,840 you know I just don't see that kind of  animus. So yeah I think it could be better. 406 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,880 Yeah I'll follow up, and then there are a  couple of questions in the chat. And then also,   407 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,240 we'll kind of move to um people. If you  want to ask a question directly to Barbara,   408 00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:10,000 I think you can use the raise your hand function.  And then we can call on people. Barbara,   409 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,520 I was I think like following up on that question,  like we see too that some of the moderates, or   410 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:22,240 arguably even collaborators with this state end  up being marginalized, and leaving right? Um um   411 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:26,720 those are generally the people who you're speaking  to in the diaspora and Dharamshala and elsewhere.   412 00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:33,360 Um but there's then also a difference between  moderate voices, kind of throwing in the towel,   413 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:39,280 and deciding they can't work within  the system. And overt opposition. And   414 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,560 in particular then, I mean obviously the  most striking parts of your book relate to   415 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,840 the self-immolations, which do take place in  which you mentioned or clustered in this region   416 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:58,960 between 2012 and 2013. Um what and you say  that it's somehow like kind of at a deep level   417 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,200 related maybe to the historical memory  of what had happened in the 50s. But then   418 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:10,800 this gap of decades - what in your sense, what  was your sense of what the catalyst here was. Why   419 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:18,320 and this is a remarkable, and obviously this is  clearly tragic as well. I mean the videos are   420 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:25,360 horrific to watch. Um what happened then.  Um and um and if after you answer that,   421 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,880 maybe we can uh turn to a couple  other questions as well. Thank you.  422 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:34,800 Well it's like you know, one thing leads  to another. In there were protests in 2008, 423 00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:49,440 Chinese forces opened fire on protesters who were  mostly peaceful. Um you know if 20, 23 people were   424 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:55,600 killed in Ngaba. It's a small town - that was like  their Tiananmen Square. It was a big deal. You   425 00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:01,840 know the following year, there was a commemoration  of those who died, and they cracked down on that.   426 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:07,840 And you know it was like one thing led to another.  Once that, once the self-immolations started,   427 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:16,400 um there was you know very harsh policy  towards the families of self-immolators,   428 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:26,080 and to witnesses. You know people who would you  know take the body, and perform Buddhist rituals   429 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:33,120 would be persecuted. And you know again, that  went you know went on, and like one thing led   430 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:41,120 to another. It was actually, I think when the  Ngaba authorities eased up on the punishing   431 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:46,240 the self-immolations. They sort of stopped,  and didn't completely stop, but they they   432 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:54,640 people began um adopting other forms of protest.  Um something very interesting about what you said   433 00:53:54,640 --> 00:54:00,320 before is a lot of the self-immolators, if you  looked at their backgrounds, were related to   434 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:09,280 people who um had been resistance fighters  in the 50s and 60s, and 70s. And that guy   435 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:16,320 Delek who's the historian um was able to  trace the family roots. The the original   436 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,880 the guy named Phuntsog who was  really the original self-immolator,   437 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:29,760 was the grandson, and the son of resistance  fighters. And this is not widely known or   438 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:35,520 hasn't been widely reported. But an awfully large  number of them were from this one village Meruma.   439 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:41,280 You know this little place. It's just and there  were these you know family ties over the years. 440 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:53,600 Thank you. Um yeah. And then that actually leads  you end the book um. We're talking about um the   441 00:54:53,600 --> 00:55:01,920 the manner in which China may be slumping towards  a perfect dictatorship. Um and really kind of what   442 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:07,840 the implications of that may be on the plateau,  and elsewhere over time, and along with that   443 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,640 a couple of questions in the chat speak to them,  kind of your experience as a reporter in China,   444 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,880 as this is beginning to unfold, and maybe talk a  little bit about your experiences, just in terms   445 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:26,000 of like risk assessment, um did you ever feel  threatened, or endangered. What concerns maybe do   446 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:33,200 you have about people who are currently reporting  um from China. That's a that's a question I think   447 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,600 we can ask, and then again, um I'll turn things  over just to the room, and see what comes up. 448 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,280 Um I did not feel   449 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:51,680 in danger personally. I was um you know a card  carrying accredited foreign correspondent.   450 00:55:52,320 --> 00:56:00,000 Um it was really perfectly legal for me to um go  to Ngaba. I mean the local authorities would have   451 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,200 kicked me out, if they saw me. But you know I  wasn't violating any rules. I did worry a lot   452 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:11,920 about Tibetans working with me, um who would  have been very harshly punished. And in fact   453 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:20,400 um after my first couple of trips in the Tibetan  areas, I started using only Chinese drivers.   454 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:29,280 Um because um I felt they wouldn't get in trouble.  It was also easier to get through checkpoints. A   455 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:34,160 lot of those checkpoints, they look at the driver,  and if the driver is Chinese, you go through. If   456 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:40,960 the driver's Tibetan, you don't. But you know  also like a Chinese. We had a Chinese driver   457 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,440 from Chengdu, and he would just say, oh I didn't  you know, I didn't know they were journalists or   458 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,840 something like that. But it's always  the people you're working with   459 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:58,480 that. That has changed somewhat the last  few years, and um um one of my colleagues,   460 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:06,160 the current um Beijing Bureau Chief Alice  Sue, has had some quite some problems. And   461 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,680 um you know others have. But I  didn't feel in personal danger.   462 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,760 I just would have been if they had seen me, they  would have kicked me out of town. That's it.   463 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,960 Thanks Barbara. Um uh there's Kinan.  I think you've raised your hand,   464 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:29,200 um if you could unmute. Uh and go ahead. Yeah thank you Barbara, and so uh so I just wanted   465 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,960 self-introduced so I'm Kinan. So I am from Hong  Kong. And and I'm actually like currently like   466 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:41,040 in exile, because of my involvement in the  Hong Kong democracy movement. So reading like,   467 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:46,160 so reading a book like like definitely, I can  like it definitely feels very emotional, like   468 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:51,520 like because like like uh like like obviously  not to the same level, but Hong Kong have also   469 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:56,000 suffered a lot of suppression, a lot of oppression  from the Chinese Communist Party. And one thing   470 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,760 I'm actually like like interested to know about  is that like like I can see like like in in your   471 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,640 book, you have interviewed a lot of like uh exiled  Tibetan activists who are now living in like   472 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:11,600 India, or like other places. And and some for  like shorter periods of time, some for like   473 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:18,560 many years like Gonpo. I think she's been exiled  for like more than 30 years. So so like like it's   474 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,120 kind of a bit of a personal question for me, but  but I'm also like kind of interested like like,   475 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,680 if you have like chatted with them, in like  a more like emotional perspective, like   476 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,960 like how they how they feel about like  living in exile, for like so many years, and   477 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:39,760 just witnessing the suffering of the people of  their of like their hometown. And and and just   478 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:46,720 uh be like not not being there with them, and  and also like I want to know like like what   479 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:53,040 do you think is like the most important thing  for them to, for them that that empowers them,   480 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:59,440 and gives them the courage to continue to fight  for freedom for Tibet. And and and like and also   481 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:05,600 uh I'm not sure if you have talks with like with  like descendants of like Tibetans, but but like   482 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:12,080 I'm also interested like like how Tibetans, they  get to they get to like uh transfer like their   483 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:19,440 their wish for Tibetan freedom towards the next  generation. And and and I guess uh just uh one   484 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:26,240 more part. It's like like if you have like uh  uh like what do you think, it's like the biggest   485 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:32,880 like like, what do you think like like exile  activists like like either from Hong Kong or   486 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:39,040 for any other place. Uh what we should learn from  these Tibetan activists that you have talked to.  487 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,440 Okay I think that I think the biggest  concern. Those are good questions,   488 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:53,760 thank you very much. And um the um I think the  biggest concern for the Tibetans in exile is um   489 00:59:53,760 --> 01:00:02,640 being estranged from their families. Um you know  the the Chinese oppression has a very long arm,   490 01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:14,640 and the Chinese government uses its visa  policy really to control Tibetans overseas. So   491 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:20,560 you know many of the Tibetans I know living in the  New York area. There are a lot are really fearful   492 01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:28,320 of speaking up, because even if they have U.S.  passports now, they want to um you know they   493 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:37,280 want to get visas to Chinese visas to visit their  families. And um they're really estranged from   494 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:43,360 their families, and it's also you know, it's well  known that Wechat, which is the primary tool for   495 01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:52,800 Tibetans to communicate with their families is  monitored. So they they won't have any kind of   496 01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:02,560 candid conversation with their family members.  I think that is the biggest biggest problem for   497 01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:09,840 Tibetan exiles at the moment, and that includes  um people who are not necessarily political. 498 01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:19,680 I mean the situation between Hong Kong and Tibet  is similar. Tibet obviously was like the original,   499 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:28,000 you know "one nation, two systems". But a lot  of these Tibetans who left, um to go to India,   500 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:33,760 didn't leave for political reasons. They  went to go to school. Um or to you know make   501 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:39,840 a pilgrimage. Mainly to go to school. A lot of  young people left Tibet because they wanted to get   502 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:47,280 an education. There a lot of schools run by the  Tibetan exile government run by NGOs in India.   503 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:55,440 Same as same as Chinese might send their kids to  a boarding school in Australia or the US or U.K..   504 01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:02,640 Tibetan sent their kids to boarding  schools in in India. And then when they   505 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:10,000 get there, you know, they get a taste of um  freedom, and it's very difficult for them to   506 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:16,080 come back. Some do come back because basically  because of love for their families, and it's   507 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:23,920 it's you know, it's hard for them to stay in  India. But um the people who have left are not   508 01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:29,760 necessarily political, and they're not necessarily  really fighting for Tibetan freedom. They're just   509 01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:37,040 you know fighting to live like a normal life  with the kind of you know normal freedoms,   510 01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:43,040 the ability to you know, read what you want, study  your own language, and somewhat modest freedoms. 511 01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:51,200 Um yeah. Molly, go ahead. I'd seen  your uh question in the chat too,   512 01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:56,400 but um please feel free to speak up. Sorry I  think I screwed up the the system here. I had   513 01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:02,400 to step away for a minute, if you already got to  it. Then I can (unintelligible). I mean we did,   514 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:07,760 the question was really about um kind of Barbara's  access as a reporter, and the restrictions she   515 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:15,840 was working with. Right yeah I think we covered  it. But thanks Barbara, nice to meet you okay. 516 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,840 Other other questions Barbara, as we're waiting,  if other people come up with ones, um you know   517 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:30,640 it's interesting that the Dalai Lama has been  mentioned in picture form. Um and that kind   518 01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:35,840 of question of the whether photos are being  shown uh within the PRC or not within Tibetan   519 01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:40,720 region's PRC or not as a barometer of I mean,  what where policy stands in any given moment.   520 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,800 I'm curious looking though into India and  looking at the question - the relationship   521 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:52,800 between Dharamshala and Beijing obviously the new  Sikh pamphlet sarin has talked a little bit about   522 01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:59,760 the possibility of restarting pre-negotiations  or pre-talks. And I just based on the time that   523 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:06,880 you did spend in Dharamshala, and and ongoing  context, um how do you, what sense do you have   524 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:15,120 of where things stand? Um and what voice, or lack  of voice on the Dalai Lama or the TCA might have   525 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,360 moving forward with how things stand  in Tibetan regions within China.  526 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:27,840 I can't say that I have any optimism at all about  talks resuming. I mean they might go through   527 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:37,040 the motions of um talking, but I think the  Chinese government is you know basically like   528 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:42,720 you know running the clock, waiting to see  what happens when the 14th Dalai Lama passes,   529 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:49,680 which I think is is very short-sighted.  I think they'll miss him when he's gone.   530 01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:56,560 But um you know, I don't sense any  earnestness about resuming talks.   531 01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:06,480 And what about um the question of reincarnation um  in searches in in the region, in the Ngaba region,   532 01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:12,080 and beyond that. And and basically I guess  the kind of the role that religion was playing   533 01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:22,720 in everyday life um what, and how that may  factor into the situation there still. I mean   534 01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:30,160 a point I make when I'm talking to, especially to  people who don't know that much about Tibet is -   535 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:36,080 you know that it's just it's so difficult  to, you know separate with the case of Tibet,   536 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:46,400 really any country, but um to separate Tibetan  Buddhism from Tibetan culture, and from the um you   537 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:52,720 know as I said you know the the circumambulating  - that's exercise - that's going to the gym. Um   538 01:05:53,520 --> 01:06:00,960 you know the monastery - that's the shopping mall  too. You know everything in the culture revolves   539 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:06,240 around Tibetan Buddhism. And you know what I  what I've seen is that even people who are not   540 01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:12,400 really true believers, who are like maybe a little  skeptical about reincarnation stuff are still   541 01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:19,680 you know revere their their culture, and their  language, and the ritual. And you know, I've   542 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:28,080 tried to explain it to people who are you know not  as familiar with Tibet or skeptical about religion   543 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,840 saying you know if somebody told you you can't  have Christmas trees because it's superstition,   544 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:39,280 you'd be like, you know but hey we have Christmas  trees. You know it's all, and and this is part of   545 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:48,240 where sometimes the Chinese policy, I think  backfires, um because you know there's they're   546 01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:54,800 just cracking down on everything, and there's  there's such an overreach, that it causes   547 01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:00,880 a reaction. And you know I think that's certainly  the case with the vilification of the Dalai Lama.   548 01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:08,320 Yeah thank you. Um yeah and then also kind  of questions about information flows and   549 01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:14,320 disinformation and the rest of it on social  media, and the control of social media. There's   550 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:18,880 I'm tempted to make some reference to some of  the discussion about stopping Christmas in this   551 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:26,720 country. But I'll leave that aside. I see that  Samuel has his hand up. Samuel, uh go ahead.  552 01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,320 Right um so this is maybe kind of an opposite  of Professor Allen Carlson's question in the   553 01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:37,920 beginning. But I'm just wondering, um so you  mentioned that perhaps if the Chinese state   554 01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:43,760 um apologize for some of their actions, then maybe  we can see some chances for reconciliation. So I'm   555 01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:50,560 just hoping to to expand on that, and see, um do  you see like any other conditions that may create   556 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:56,560 um reconciliation or better relations? I know  that you have worked on different different uh 557 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:07,520 encountered some instances where you see  potentials where um these ethnic conflicts   558 01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:12,480 can be reconciled to some extent, So I'm just  wondering in the case of Tibet. What do you see as   559 01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:17,520 opportunities for reconciliations or any sort of  conditions that are conducive to better relations   560 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:22,320 either between the Tibetans with the Chinese state  or with the Han Chinese community in general.  561 01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:29,680 Thanks. Good question. Thanks. You know I don't  think anybody's expecting an apology at this   562 01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:38,800 late stage, but I think you know some backing  off could help, because you know I see somewhat   563 01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,640 you know, I often see somewhat  warm relations between   564 01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:52,000 you know Tibetan individuals and Han Chinese  individuals. I was in Lhasa a couple of years ago,   565 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:57,360 over the summer, and it was just you know  filled with Chinese tourists, and a lot of um   566 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,400 you know young you know it was like  some people taking selfies, and   567 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:08,080 this and that. But it's a lot of young Chinese  tourists who are really interested in Tibet, and   568 01:09:09,440 --> 01:09:14,240 you know really interested in the sort of  the soul of China. There's been a lot of um   569 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:21,440 writing lately about you know, it's as does has  modern China lost its soul, and its tradition   570 01:09:21,440 --> 01:09:26,240 and the process of getting wealthy. And I felt  to me like some of these young Chinese were like   571 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:32,480 looking for the soul of China in Tibet. Um you  know were very interested in Tibetan culture   572 01:09:32,480 --> 01:09:40,720 and Tibetan people. And so I'm not, you know  I think with less overreach on the part of the   573 01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:50,560 um Chinese Communist Party, things could be okay  again. You know they've been relatively quiet   574 01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:57,440 for in recent decades. I mean there  have been a few flare-ups, but um   575 01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:04,240 you know not so many. And one of the things  that struck me about Ngaba in particular is the   576 01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:11,200 period that I was writing about like, I didn't  find learn about a single case where a Tibetan   577 01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:18,320 killed a Han Chinese person. You know and  going back 30 years, you know and I'm sure   578 01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:22,400 it must have happened there must have been  like some guys who got into a fight in a bar   579 01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:29,840 or something. But I didn't hear of any cases,  and you know I just didn't you know I don't see   580 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:36,960 that kind of animus on the people-to-people  level. So I think that gives me some hope.   581 01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:43,920 Yeah I mean and you'd mentioned your reporting in  Bosnia, I mean so so they're the the contrast in   582 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:52,080 terms of the level of animosity is is quite um  obvious. I think the the catch 22 though from   583 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:57,840 Beijing's perspective, and it's clear regardless  of who's in charge the policy is promoting   584 01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:02,960 national unity, territorial integrity, and so from  Beijing's perspective, there's no question here,   585 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:08,160 about what is China in relationship to Tibet.  Tibet is part of China since ancient times.   586 01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:13,120 Um but I think do you think there has been some  variation in policy over time, and the catch-22   587 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:18,720 though is that it does seem I would actually  slightly um take issue with your observation,   588 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:24,080 because I think that in the 80s when there were  more lenient policies, more liberal policies,   589 01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:29,200 that tended I think to free up the monastic  institutions, um to play a little bit of a   590 01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:34,880 larger role in peaceful protest, and you get  to the 87 to 89 cycle of demonstrations. And   591 01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:40,400 from the Chinese perspective from interviews, I've  done in Beijing the lesson from that period was no   592 01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:46,960 no like opening things up actually doesn't work.  Um and then there was confidence at least through   593 01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:56,240 2008 that cracking down with economic development  right um - these massive infrastructure projects   594 01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,360 was going to keep a lid on things, and  eventually kind of win the Tibetans over.   595 01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:07,760 And again and I think what becomes interesting is  then the wheels fall off a little bit right. Um   596 01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:15,440 and and where we're left now. Um I see that uh  Anita has a question. Anita. Uh yes I have a quick   597 01:12:15,440 --> 01:12:23,440 question. Um I'm curious to hear how successful do  you think the Chinese government is at designing   598 01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:29,760 and implementing the educational system in  Tibet, and how do local Tibetans feel about it. 599 01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:38,400 Um good question. I don't know if it's gotten  any better since I left, but it seemed like   600 01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:45,040 the there were a lot of complaints um from  Tibetans about the quality of the education.   601 01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:51,040 And I mean these these weren't strictly  speaking political complaints. I mean they were   602 01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,800 a lot of people are unhappy that there's  not enough education offered in Tibetan,   603 01:12:54,800 --> 01:13:02,080 but they were also unhappy about the quality of  the Chinese language education. Um and people   604 01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:08,880 said you know their kids would go go to school for  three years, they could barely write their names.   605 01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:16,560 And I saw this amazing thing personally with  a photographer. This was like 2014, we were in   606 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,520 a town near Ngaba - Aba the Chinese, 607 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:31,600 and we went to a um a kindergarten. She was just  like taking pictures of cute kids. And we walked   608 01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:39,040 into this classroom, and these kids were like  maybe five, six, seven. And I think they were   609 01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:46,320 like 40 or 50 kids in the class. And there was  no teacher there, like nobody, and one of the   610 01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,800 kids had uh the kids were like really excited  when we came in, because they thought like we   611 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:55,600 were teachers. You know, that we were going  to teach them, and they all like stood up,   612 01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:00,880 and were really happy, and then one of the kids  had a nosebleed, and another kid was um saying   613 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:05,760 like oh look this kid has a nosebleed. But we're  like, you know we're we're journalists. And then,   614 01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,560 I thought this was like an anomaly. Something  else happened, but then we went back again,   615 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:15,760 and there was still no teacher there. And I  mean I just I couldn't you know imagine that,   616 01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:27,200 like you know 40, 50 kids in a classroom. And this  is this is one reason that um Tibetans send their   617 01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:32,480 kids to boarding school in India. And you know  those those Tibetan boarding schools in India   618 01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:37,920 also teach Chinese. They want their kids to learn  not only Tibetan. They want them to learn Chinese.   619 01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:43,680 They want them to learn English. And these are  you know, these are good schools, they've been   620 01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:50,560 um you know supported by European NGOs. And  there's a lot of very well-educated Tibetans   621 01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:58,880 in India with frankly not a lot to do, since they  don't really have legal status. Um and you know   622 01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:05,200 that's that's one big reason that Tibetans leave.  These, and so these Tibetan kids will be sent   623 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:12,080 at like you know 12, 13 to a boarding school.  You know the same way you know Chinese students   624 01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:16,960 might be sent to a boarding school. And  then you know they become accustomed to   625 01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:23,120 you know living in a more open society, and it's  very difficult for them to decide what to do,   626 01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:28,560 because a lot of them do want to go back to Tibet.  They want to be you know with their families,   627 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:38,160 and the the and nobody denies that the standard  of living is much higher in Tibetan China,   628 01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:43,520 Chinese Tibet than it is in India. I mean even  if the Tibetans have a much lower standard of   629 01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:49,360 living than Han Chinese, it's still better than  in India, so it's very it's very difficult. And I   630 01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:58,560 you know, when I was working in India, I spoke to  a lot of um young Tibetans who were debating what   631 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:07,120 to do. And it was like you know but what do what  do I do if I go back to Tibet. Um you know do I   632 01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:13,680 you know have to join the Communist Party, you  know which means like I can't go to the monastery,   633 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:21,440 and I can't you know celebrate our holidays. And  do I become a teacher - really low salaries. Um   634 01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:26,240 you know or do I like you know herd yak, you  know. It's like you know you can imagine these   635 01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:33,120 are people your own age, um so they're kind  of stuck as to their future. But this is a   636 01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:39,280 long answer. But the education system is a big  problem. And there were a lot of independent   637 01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:48,000 um schools, there were a lot of um actually Han  Chinese volunteers from the East who are like,   638 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:55,360 you know setting up small schools in rural Tibetan  areas. Um when I first started traveling in that   639 01:16:55,360 --> 01:17:01,840 area like 2008, 2009, and those have all been  closed down. It's just government schools now. 640 01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:10,080 Yeah and obviously, language policy is a central  issue um in thinking about the relationship   641 01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:15,840 between China and Tibet. And Tashi Wangchuk um  you know sort of being detained, and and I think   642 01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:21,600 he was in jail then for three or four years or  at least recently um for uh speaking I think it   643 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:29,840 was in the New York Times about a lack of Tibetan  language teaching. Um that's that's continuing,   644 01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:37,680 you know like bit by bit there in Ngaba, um there  was like there were three elementary schools   645 01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:45,440 um, and one still had primary language, Tibetan,  and that's been eliminated. I think as of   646 01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:50,960 this month. And then there's also the  challenge though in the diaspora of   647 01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:57,840 maintaining Tibetan language um skills, and and  cultural right um. And and I think that that's   648 01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:05,440 it's it raises this question of of if we're asking  what is China, also what is what is Tibet. And   649 01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:10,640 you began your remarks by saying, and one of the  things for you that struck you was um traveling   650 01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:17,520 from Chengdu up, and then just kind of knowing you  were someplace else right. Um to to kind of sort   651 01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:21,840 of finishing up, and again, if there are any last  one or two questions, that would be fine. If not   652 01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:27,920 but finishing up, then returning that question  of what is China, and and maybe the companion   653 01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:32,880 question what is Tibet. Barbara, as you're  reflecting on your comments, the questions the   654 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:40,640 work you've been doing, um how would you, and not  to put you on the spot, but how would you respond   655 01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:47,680 to those two questions? What is China? What is  what is Tibet? Oh I think I've answered that.   656 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:53,840 Yeah okay I think I've already discussed  that it's not it's just it's a really tough 657 01:18:56,240 --> 01:19:02,480 question is what it what is the People's  Republic of China? What is Chinese culture? Two   658 01:19:02,480 --> 01:19:04,640 two completely different questions.   659 01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:13,120 Yeah no, and and again I think a lot of people are  working on this, and haven't come to a particular   660 01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:21,840 conclusion yet. Um again uh to the to the audience  are there any other questions um of any kind? 661 01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:40,640 Okay well it. Oh yes there I guess the  um so um Amala just sent me a message   662 01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:48,320 saying early on. Uh uh one of the other kind of  peripheral regions of of in in China's orbit that   663 01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:55,600 um was on your map was Taiwan, uh and in one  of the maps, and we know that uh kind of the   664 01:19:55,600 --> 01:20:02,800 politics of cartography here are hotly contested  - um it actually showed Taiwan as a part of China.   665 01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:08,400 I guess another way of looking at it though is  that there is I know a strong cultural affinity   666 01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:13,440 for Tibet in Taiwan, and particularly  the practice of Tibetan Buddhism.   667 01:20:14,480 --> 01:20:21,200 The Dalai Lama has visited Taiwan  frequently. Um and so I'm just um   668 01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:27,600 bringing back this kind of question of of  maps uh, and maybe speaking a little bit um to   669 01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:33,360 where Taiwan fits within all of this. Is if  you have anything on that regards, Barbara?  670 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:41,520 Um I don't really, it's not my area of expertise,   671 01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:50,080 um I would note that the they did have Taiwan in  white but that map also included you know Korea,   672 01:20:50,080 --> 01:21:00,480 and Mongolia, and Kazakhstan, and other places.  Um I'm just not a I mean, I have thoughts about um   673 01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:06,160 Taiwan, but it's not my area of expertise  I must say, I fear for the future. 674 01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:13,200 I think too I mean another way of looking  at it also in terms of Samuel's question   675 01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:20,240 about reconciliation is that, there is  widespread belief in Buddhism across   676 01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:28,800 other non-Tibetan parts of the People's Republic  of China. And and perhaps and obviously, this is   677 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:35,760 not the direction that Xi is taking the under his  leadership. But um there is common ground there   678 01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:42,000 too, I think between Han and non-Han peoples. And  and quite a bit of reverence actually for various   679 01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:48,560 Tibetan Lamas right, that then travel to  "nei di" to the um interior parts of China,   680 01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:56,240 and have followers there. So I think that  that's um another thing to consider um,   681 01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:01,200 I was just going to say that, um you know I have  I've been to Taiwan a couple times, but I haven't   682 01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:08,480 spent a lot of time there. But the among um you  know when you go to Dharamshala, if you go to see   683 01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:16,800 um the Dalai Lama, it's it's that town is full  of Han Chinese tourists. I mean from actually   684 01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:26,000 from a lot of people from Shanghai, and um the  Dalai Lama makes a um a great effort to see um   685 01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:33,360 visitors from the People's Republic of China. And  in fact Tsegyam, his aid who's in my book said,   686 01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:42,080 oh they're our secret weapon, you know before um  you know sort of they're hoping that the reverence   687 01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:48,640 for Buddhism will um will sort of help, ease the  way forward. I think personally that's wishful   688 01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:58,160 thinking. I mean when when Xi Jinping was first  coming in in 2012, people were Tibetans were so   689 01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:04,400 enthusiastic about you know his mother was a  Buddhist, and his father used to wear a watch   690 01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:10,960 that was given to him by the 14th Dalai Lama.  And it was all going to be great, you know, and   691 01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:16,240 Xi Jinping is going to crack down corruption, and  he's going to be so um you know wonderful for us. 692 01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:21,200 There's like there's always this  like kind of wishful thinking.   693 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:28,480 Right and I think before Hu Jintao had  also um served as party secretary right,   694 01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:31,440 and there was some sense under him that  this was also going to lead to more   695 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:38,800 lenient policy making which which didn't  really materialize. Shushen, we have um just   696 01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:43,200 a few minutes left, if you have a quick question  that would be great, and then we can uh wrap up. 697 01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:55,200 Thank you Barbara for such a fascinating uh  stories, and and your insight on definitely this   698 01:23:55,200 --> 01:24:04,960 very pressing issue uh China is facing. I have a  particular question about the education again. Um   699 01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:14,000 so the you mentioned they compare with  the boarding school uh set up by Tibetan   700 01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:20,800 government (unintelligible).  The quality of education   701 01:24:21,440 --> 01:24:29,200 that is really poor right. So my question is  mainly about this bilingual education. So do   702 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:37,680 you have any elaboration or updates on that? Since  particularly the new emphasis on you know this uh   703 01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:47,280 national unity, you know patriotic education aw  supposed to still you know some degree of the   704 01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:58,000 attention to the Tibetan language culture  history. So what about this bilingual education   705 01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:04,720 in Tibet, at least in elementary school? I mean it I think all the schools are   706 01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:12,080 you know bilingual, well at least have some  Chinese language. I think the issue is how much   707 01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:19,920 Tibetan language is taught, and my sense  is that it varies a lot from town to town,   708 01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:27,760 county to county. You know people say oh well  my kids are you know my kids are learning in   709 01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:37,760 Tibetan, but it's not, you know it's really very  local. Um and you know it it's tricky because   710 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:45,280 you know most Tibetans do want their kids to learn  Chinese, and it's terrible to say but the kids   711 01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:53,040 also want to learn Chinese, because um Chinese  is actually much easier than Tibetan. Tibetan is,   712 01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:59,760 written Tibetan is is really very difficult,  and Chinese is the language of television.   713 01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:10,960 And what what I saw when I was in Lhasa was  that there was um you know there there was   714 01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:17,840 like Tibetan tv, and there was like Chinese tv.  And the Chinese tv was just more entertaining,   715 01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:23,120 like one of the things that I noticed is like the  Chinese news would have like an attractive young   716 01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:28,720 woman reading the news. And the Tibetan news  would have like an old man reading the news.   717 01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:34,960 And the uh sorry sorry you know I mean I don't  want to you know denigrate you know men. But   718 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:43,760 the and the the movies on the um Tibetan  channel were like Hong Kong movies in Cantonese,   719 01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:51,920 and they had you know subtitles flashing very  quickly in Tibetan, and in you know simplified   720 01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:57,680 characters, but you know you had to be like a  very adept reader to like follow those subtitles.   721 01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:05,440 And you know they go through different phases  sometimes there's like no Chi- you know no   722 01:27:05,440 --> 01:27:12,160 Tibetan allowed, sometimes it's allowed. My sense  and this was 2017, and it changes frequently,   723 01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:16,560 was that they were allowing Tibetan,  but there wasn't very much in Tibetan.   724 01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:22,960 So um I had read, I mean this is just  an anecdote, but I'm a journalist.   725 01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:29,280 I had I had heard that all the Harry Potter  books had been translated into Tibetan.   726 01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:34,800 And I knew a Tibetan who really wanted to get the  Harry Potters for his daughter, and actually there   727 01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,880 was Xinhua had something there was like big deal.  We're supporting the Tibetan language there's   728 01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:46,160 Harry Potter in Tibet. so I went into this really  big bookstore in Lhasa, and you know there was no   729 01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:52,240 Harry Potter in Tibetan. You know actually  there was almost nothing in Tibetan. I mean   730 01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:58,000 there was like you know books about religion,  some children's books, you know calligraphy,   731 01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:05,360 the uh just not very appealing looking books. I  mean the point was if you wanted to read Harry   732 01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:13,600 Potter, you're gonna read Harry Potter in Chinese,  and so you know my my sense was that, okay you can   733 01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:17,680 learn Tibetan, you know and be a monk, but you  know you want to read Harry Potter. You want to   734 01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:25,760 you know go see the latest you know Spider-man  or whatever Chinese, all in Chinese um,   735 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:33,440 and you know there was there were a lot of these  like little private schools. There was um an   736 01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:43,440 initiative by by monks to um over their summer  vacation to teach older people who are illiterate   737 01:28:44,160 --> 01:28:49,360 Tibetan, and they'd set up blackboards, and  pastures and stuff, and that was pretty much   738 01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:55,360 shut down. I mean I should also mention briefly  the monasteries - I mean you know most of the   739 01:28:55,360 --> 01:29:04,880 people who are really literate in um Tibetan um  have a monastery education for the matter anyway.   740 01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:11,920 Barbara, we um are slightly over, and it is  dinner time for for most people, um so um   741 01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:18,720 just wanted to conclude by again. Thanking you  for your time um, and this is a wonderful talk,   742 01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:25,280 so thank you so much, thank you everyone for  attending, and uh hopefully we'll see all of   743 01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:34,640 you again in a few weeks when Jim Milward speaks  to us. Thank you Barbara. Okay thank you Allen.